Hounds downunder

[sambarhound]

I have to confess my ignorance when it comes to hounds that are used in the US. I hunt Sambar deer in Australia with beagles and bloodhounds(only 2 breeds permitted by government).

I am very interested to hear from some experienced houndsmen about the different qualities of all the different breeds that are used in the US and the pros n cons of them. I know different animals are hunted eg deer, bear, lion, hogs, etc. And that is some of the reason why there are so many breeds. Can someone give me a heads up on which are the better breeds to hunt the different types of game and why.

I know the info is probably all on this site but I am lazy and would appreciate a summary or some direction to some good posts that have been previously put up.

In 2004 the state government in Victoria Australia banned the use of all breeds bar the beagle and bloodhound to hunt sambar deer. This is the only game animal that can be legally with hounds in Victoria. There are plenty of blokes who use terriers and running dogs on foxes, rabbits, and hares and another group of keen hunters who run their dogs and the hogs. But most if not all of this hunting takes place on private land. The majority of deerhunting with hounds is on public land and hence the constant problems with government. Many years of training and selectively breeding went out the window when the government banned foxhounds and their crosses. I know there were a few blokes running black and tans and a few blueticks were getting around the hills as well.

Recently the NSW state government (via the NSW game council) has decided to run a trial period for hound hunting in NSW. If things go well it will be a massive leap forward for hound hunting(HH) in Aus. There may be the chance to have some more hound breeds being allowed. IF that ever happens I would be very interested to import some bloodlines from the US.

To give an idea of the type of hunting we do so you could give some suggestions as to which US breeds would be suitable to hunting Sambar I will try and give some info on how we hunt . For most crews(teams) the main goal is to shoot a trophy stag(30 inch is the magic number) over their hounds. But just as there are different blokes there are diferent methods used. You can only legally run 5 hounds at a time. The way we(the team I hunt with) run our hounds is to get up in the morning and start tracking till we find a stag we want to hunt. The hounds are then walked in on leads till they are on the marks and away they go. At the moment we have one hound that can be trusted to be fired in and he will find the deer and crank it up. We have a couple of younger hounds that will probably be in the same boat by the end of this season. A hunt usually covers about 9 km2 ( 4-5 square miles) but sometimes the hounds can end up 10-20 miles away. The sambar weigh about 600lbs and use the water well to try and throw the hounds of the scent. They also double back over their marks and run dry ridges(not much scent). A stag will also run through his does to try and lose the hounds. We hunt in mountain terrain with snow on the tops of the mountains for part of the season. Usually there is access with a vehicle but there are some places that it is all legwork.

I would be interested to hear about your hounds if you have the time

[12-GAUGE]

Don't have the extended time, but I'll make it short for you.

GET SOME BLUETICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dads dogboy]

Sambarhound,

The way you hunt is very much the same as the way lots of good hunters hunt Whitetail deer across the South Eastrn US.

We have a friend, Martin Sewell, Salem, Florida (He is the caretaker for our FL Camp) who raises trains and sells Quality Deer Hounds. His stock of Dogs, and he has been breeding them 30 or so years, is made up of 1/4 Beagle and 3/4 Old Style Walker foxhounds. He breeds Biddable Hounds that you can put down on a track and call off if it turns out to be a Doe. They give lots of Tongue and Have great big mouths when they do.

I will be in FL in a couple of weeks and will show him how to find this on his computer and have him contact you, you blokes will have a lot in commom.

Have some very good friends North of Sidney, others in Cairns, and Paul Baker who has a large Station in NSW, unfortuatly have not talked to Paul in years. Hope your fires are about over!


Good Day & Good Running!

C. John Clay

[sambarhound]

Hey DD,


Anybody who loves his hounds and loves hunting over them is going to be a friend of mine!!! Doesnt matter what country you come from or what language you speak. Hunting is like money. It speaks ALL languages.


Release the hounds!!!!

[reed]

I agree with DD it doesn't matter what breed they are you should look into the dogs that people are running on deer already. No reason to try and reinvent the wheel, or put a car tire on a truck.

[livetohunt]

First off welcome to the site. I hope you guys can win your fight over there to hunt as you see fit. I had to look up the Sambar deer the thought of a 600 lbs deer had my mind racing. Here in California the deer are more in the 60-100 lbs range. After looking them up looks more like our Elk. Good luck with your hunt and your fight.

[sambarhound]

[sambarhound]

Getting info out of you blokes is like getting blood out of a stone.

[liontracker]

Are you only interested in running them on deer?

[sambarhound]

Yes only deer and only sambar. I would love to come to the States and hunt cougar and bear. Actually I would love to come and hunt all the game in the US with hounds. Nothing like hearing hounds go from a cold trailing voice to a full roar when they jump what it is they are chasing!!!

I have been doing a little reading on the various hound breeds. Seems as if most of the hounds used in the US have come from foxhound origins except the Plott. So I imagine they hunt the same from what I have seen with foxhounds in Aus. Then it is just up to the houndsmen to continually breed for performance for whatever it is they want their hounds to chase and however they want them to chase it.

The way I like to hunt is to find the stag we want to hunt and walk the hounds onto his marks. Because of the size and type of terrain we hunt it is not always possible to find him fresh so the hounds have to be able to cold trail a mark. But the best hounds are the ones that are fast ie. they put pressure on the stag to run and make mistakes and or bail. Often having a fast hound means he runs with his head up and so he over shoots the mark and or is not as determined/good at cold trailing. Everynow and again you get the complete package. The goal is to be able to breed lines that throw consistent traits. At the moment we have a ripper. Does everything you want. Only problem is he is very independent(likes to hunt on his own) and doesnt give much tongue while cold trailing. This makes it difficult to follow him if we dont start him on marks. Sometimes he is 2-3 miles away before he has caught up with the deer and really begins to sing. On windy days in the high country sometimes that means spending half the day trying to find him. But there is nothing like climbing over the top of a ridge and then faintly hearing the hum coming from further down the valley........" I can hear him. Get over here quick"!!!!!

I want to talk to blokes who are good houndsmen about what they breed for, how they hunt, how they train, how they select pups from a litter, how they make the hound scent specific. From what i can gather it is not legal to hunt female cougar. Do you think it is possible to train your hounds to only hunt males? If the male and female produce a different scent I think you can. That is what I would like to try and achieve, if possible. A pack of hounds that would selectively hunt sambar stags only. Having said that, some of the best hunts I have had have been on does. I dont even know if it is possible. I am trying to find out as much as I can about scent and how hounds use it to help them hunt. What better place to learn than on a hound hunting web site??

One thing I must say is that it is illegal for hounds in AUS to be aggressive to the deer. ie. they must stand off and bark/bay. I know before the foxhounds were banned that some guys had bred other breeds into the foxhound that did want to go in and grab. That is how the hog hunting is done here. They use dogs that can grab and hold the hog. Great hunting but it is not legal to hunt deer this way.

hope to hear from some interested houndsmen

[liontracker]

Sambar,

It is legal to hunt female cougar. However, in most areas it is not a good idea to kill them, in order to maintain or increase the existing population. To expect a hound to only trail males would be asking too much. On the other hand, I expect my hounds to finish the same same track that I start them on, not to switch to another one during the race. This way I can be selective as to what they run.

As for Stag hounds, the vast majority of our hounds have been bred for tree game ever since they originally came over here on the boat in the early 1700's. That is not to say that they aren't capable of a magnificent Elk or Deer race from time to time! My personal "best" in that department was 15 miles one way... A bad day for me that would have been a good day for you.

It would seem that you would be better served by a strain bred specifically for Stag than for treegame. But if the Stag hounds have a tedancy to switch tracks during the race, then maybe a strain of biggame hound that will finish what it starts is what you need afterall.

There is no doubt in my mind that if our biggame hounds were allowed to run Elk or Deer for a living, they would think they died and went to heaven!

[Majestic Tree Hound]

[sambarhound]

[liontracker]

Yes a big game hound is a term used for all hounds that are used for big game.
As for the staghounds, I am not familiar with the various breeds and how they hunt. However one of the above posts would be a good place to start. There are also some incredible breeds in use in France, the extra tall, orange colored Billys come to mind.
The tree instinct is a specific trait that we breed for. Taken to the extreme, they will stay at the tree until they starve out or the hunter arrives. Mine have stayed treed all day, all that night and all the next day until I could get to them.
It sounds like what you are looking for is more than the average stag hound. Something that has a pretty cold nose, can move a track fast, will stay on the track you start and will stay at the bayup a long time.

[sambarhound]

That is pretty much it in a nutshell LT. Some of the big game breeds you guys are using sound as if they fit the bill. Foxhound with some bloodhound or similar bred into them for the cold scenting ability. That is what most of the big game hounds appear to be.

The guys that are hog hunting have bred more towards a heavier/stronger dog and the lion hunters need to have a hound that has an extremely cold nose but who also has some speed.

The biggest "x factor" that is required in my opinion is the desire to hunt. All hound breeds have examples of this. And when you hunt over a hound that has the x factor it is a joy to watch them work. They bust their gut to try and catch up with what you have started them on and then roar their guts out when they do to let you know they have. I am not sure if there is a gene for this but it is what I believe most breeders are striving for. To produce offspring that what to hunt. I love some of the footage I have been watching of hounds treed just about stripping the bark from the tree and biting branches. If you ask me this is definitely a sign that they have the x factor. I was hunting with a guy who had a dog like this. Once he got loaded into the crate he got a glazed look in his eyes. Almost trance like. He had eaten half the internal wooden divider in the crate. But man, when you opened the crate it was like unleashing a caged tiger. He wanted to work and would hunt till he fell over with exhaustion. Gotta love hunting over hounds like that !!!