Dogs,Dogs,Dogs

[macedonia mule man]

Perk, you mentioned something about dogs competing against each other . I road hunt my dogs and there is one that always has to be in front but after the race is going the same dog doesn’t fight for the front as much as he is trying to run the game. In the woods I don’t see fighting for the front as I see a desire to keep game moving.

[Beebout-it]

I’ve had a similar experience with a dog a guy gave to my son when he was much younger, supposedly was a finished bear dog but was barely a dog. Just refused to go with the dogs no matter how fresh a race was, bear, lion, or bobcat. I told him like u said law that today he went or I was done that day. Turned the dogs out and he wouldn’t go , I followed the track for 200 yards with him and set my pack down and said sorry buddy this is as far as you go and he looked at me stuck his nose in the track and I never had an issue with him again. Turned into a fabulous dog. That was after months of taking him .

[perk]

Mule, front end dogs are not content being in 2nd place, they are gonna run hard as they can to be up there, no whether it's to be in front or to try to gain ground to catch the quarry, or it doesn't like the way another dogs butt looks in it's face or the scent of another dog overtop the quarry he is chasing, or it's about dominancy. I don't know why they may do it, but Those front end hard driving dogs aren't content to follow another dog, they wanna lead in a race.
Had a dog years ago who to my knowledge, and I hunted him alot and watched him run a lot, he never barked in 2nd place, and if a dog swung and got in front of him, the moment he came to the place in the track where that other hound entered the race he stopped running the track and cut to the front of the race again, he would not continue on that track in 2nd place, he was gonna find the front, and he was quick about doing it. Don't think he was looking to just keep the chase going muleman. I had and hunted with enough good dogs that could a kept the race going if he had trotted around in 3rd or 30th place, he wanted and needed to be the front.

[perk]

Beebout-it I believe when dogs are purchased by new handlers, potentially in new territory and with a new pack they may not run immediately. I've owned several dogs that would t run if a strange dog was out there. I just gave away a couple in the past year that they did not run for the new owners. No way I keep a dog til 5-6 who didn't run, didnt failbto have them in any race i had. But they would not run with the new owners pack, stood on tailgate and watched their dogs run. Dogs do funny things.

[lawdawgharris]

Perk you make a good point about knowing the pedigree and tendencies of it. I have also factored that into the time I gave dogs. I raised a litter once that I would’ve bet everything I owned on being the best I’d ever raised. Good thing I didn’t! They were the norm of the family physically, but as far as fire and being early starters, they were way off point. That litter was a whole year or more behind in everything they did vs the other dogs of the family. It turned out that that particular stud produced that. Anyway, long story short I got rid of everything that was out of that stud. Now this litter I’m talking about made dogs for everyone that got them, but in my opinion, not good enough. Those people for the most part were happy with them and that’s the way it should be if you’re feeding a dog. But, when I hunted with those dogs, they didn’t know which way the dogs I dropped went. My dogs would be bayed before those dogs ever got in gear good. I’m not trying to brag or boast about my dogs, just making the point that as closely as the dogs were related, you would’ve thought they would performed much more similar. I didn’t wait on them because they weren’t the norm of the line even though I figured them to be potential super stars. I feel good about my decision after hunting with them multiple times.


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[Beebout-it]

Perk I’ve definitely heard of dogs doing that, he was extremely timid towards not only people but other dogs as well so definitely could have been the case. He made a great lion dog and eventually stopped being afraid of anything. I sent him to a guy and that dog trained up quite a few pups for him. I always try different dogs from other breedings but usually sell them and continue on with the line of dogs I bred at home.

[macedonia mule man]

Perk, I always got rid of dogs like that. I called them swingers and they usually put more gaps in a race than I wanted. The ones I had couldn’t keep a race going by themselves.

[perk]

Mule, I ain't talking about just a swinger. Those that we would see in a fox pen style setting or a speed and drive winner. I'm talking about hounds that run the front and want to catch game and don't let others get between them. I agree a swinger can put gaps in a race and usually don't hold the track well. (As an aside it is also the job of the pack to pull up to the front dog even if he swings, so any swinger needs to be able to hold the track til the calvary arrives.) now back to topic, ive seen many dogs that do exactly what I described and caused alot of game to get caught, that dog i mentioned had a whole litter of pups that were the same way, and the only one of those that was bred passed down those traits to her offspring. A lot of the guys running crop dogs breed dogs with these traits too.
I wouldn't give you 10 cent for a front end dogs that swings but couldn't hold it, but them ones that refuse to be fronted and drive to catch are worth more money than alot of self proclaimed houndsmens entire packs.
I will cull a worthless swinger in a heartbeat, owning the front dog means little to me unless he can hold the track, make turns and is looking to catch and can close the distance to his quarry , but I don't know of any houndsmens who get rid of the type of dog I'm describing unless they are selling out or have become accustomed to not putting an end to the track and wanna remain like that.

[macedonia mule man]

Perk, does it take a different type dog to run ( I guess you’re talking about people who run in row crop fields) in a bean, cotton or corn field. I don’t run in farming land.

[perk]

Mule, I don't live directly in or hunt a ton of crop country but have hunted it plenty, I am mostly a woods (thick cutover and briars, rolling hills not flat land) hunter based on where I live and have permission to hunt. Those guys who do tend to like a dog to be a little more heads up than I like all mine to be, a crop field race depending on the stage of the crops (are they lapped over tightly or not), scenting conditions, and other things can be super fast and a super fun, a dog that wont pick his head up and pull up to the pack is a hinderance to these fellows, or is out of the race completely. I run in the woods more so never have great dogs in the crops, just usable and honestly if i hunt with others some of mine are too track oriented for that style when compared to their dogs, but i need their traits where i live and hunt. I can take my pack and catch game in the crops fine (may take a few minutes longer) and they pack fine in crops when im hunting alone, so it isn't that it requires a different type of dogs, most those guys require certain things of their hounds to contribute in the pack and style they want. These same packs also catch cats and foxes in the woods and swamps too, all up and down the east coast. Some areas they may not shine as bright as others.

[al baldwin]

Perk this opinion of mine has nothing to do with you or anyone/s post, I will use the belle female I wrote about as an example, she would not pull to other dogs most times, she did her own thing, but recall the first time I hunted her with my mentor Clarence Berg/s pack. Dogs started a cold bobcat, his dogs left her behind, they trailed then jumped & had a race made lose and shut down. Coarse clarence look at his watch said we will give them one hour to locate. Belle trailed into that location giving a bark here & there. And soon rolled into a triple chop any kid could call treed. They had a nice sized tom bobcat about 150 up a dougfir. I recall clarence spotted the cat first using high power glasses, and said darn that female will tree. I never considered her a fast dog but, can tell you for sure if she decide to run a deer there was a good chance she would catch that deer. She caught more than one, that was my fault. I hear talk of how fast running dogs are and yet some believe their dogs cannot catch a deer. Can anyone explain that?

[perk]

Id say Terrain mostly, Al, id also ask did belle trail up and jump the deer she caught or run it from jumped fresh out the bed? usually deer in my country get a little head start... seen fair share of deer caught before, one the breeders i respect most highly said if a dog runs a deer for 2-3 hours and dont catch it, it is a sorry deer dog. i dont want mine to run one, but if he does i want him to run it right!

I see online the speed of a whitetail deer can be 35mph, Coyote can be 35-43mph, and plenty more yotes are caught than deer.

also Belle sounds like a pretty nice dog, glad you got the chance to own her!

[al baldwin]

Thanks for the answer, i think most of the deer belle ran were started red hot. I don/t think terrain got get much rougher than here where I did most all my hunting. I did get belle broke to a point to where Tom Barnette would say lets just use belle to start we want catch a bear today. But even then I knew if things got just right she might take a hot deer, we had lots of deer and she sure turned down lots of them. Tom used his dogs for bear, coyote & bobcat those dogs were the real game catchers, but at that time they were hunted most days. They could sure make life miserable & caught some tough bobcat. But the never caught all of them. Clarence used to tell me if anyone tells you they catch every bobcat they run, ask to go hunting with them. A bear finally caught belle when she was eight years old, no tracking equipment, she found her way into a ranch house, the muscles in her neck were torn so bad her head hanged down between her legs, this was days later. She spend about one month in intensive care at the vets office. That vet was so impressed with her desire to live he had the news paper do an story on her. He told me if he charged what I really owed I would have to take out a huge loan, he charged me 300.00 and let me make payments. That vet later wrote a book and he wrote a section about belle. I have that book. Ther is a picture of her and the first bear she treed sitting by my bed.

[perk]

Al, I don't wanna get in an pissing match over whose terrian is worse, seen that argument too much, but I will say Belle sounds like one tough old gal! Glad you got to reminisce about her to others!

[lawdawgharris]

I like ole Belle and never met her lol. The vet sounds like a pretty good guy too.


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