Breeding

[JTG]

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/article/brackets-formula

[david]

Thank you for the link, which has many more links. It is good, although he almost lost me by repeating the same thing ten times (I counted lol) in the first three paragraphs. But I love the color coded stick figures!! And journal comments contained on the pedigree. Don't we wish we had those for each of our dogs! Great. The colors are for physical traits. It Would be awesome if Some one also came up with a color code for cat or bear dog hunting traits...and we had them for three generations for every dog. Wow.

[david]

Someone asked me what I would include in a stick-man (stick-dog) rating system for cat dogs. I got too many for the eight sticks. So help me out. What did I forget, and how do we get it down to eight?

Copied and pasted the following:

Well, the physical ratings would probably match the standards for a foxhound.

And you only get four choices for rating, and I don't know how you would even show a stick man for performance exactly, unless you did away with the stick man for physical ratings and coded each part of the stick man for performance traits. But it would still have to be pretty basic. (Looks like eight sticks)And I would want to think about it a lot and discuss it with folks a lot, but off the top of my head:

Intelligence regarding problem solving;

ability to start a track on the ground and cold trail (rate over-all cold trailing ability based on succesful jump rate)

Track style on cold track (speed, tight/swing)

Track style on jumped track (tight/swing).

Use of eyes ears and all non-nose senses in closing with game.

Over-all Ability to stop the desired critter on the ground,

Ability to give voice on airborn scent (locating out of the air, striking off the rig).

Over-all Locating ability, wherever the critter may be,

Physical and mental actual stamina (based on days of hunting with eight hours of rest in-between).

attitude or temperament.

Quality and volume of the voice.

Frequency and accuracy of the vocalization.

Tree barking.

I think that is more than eight though and I probably forgot some stuff. So it would take a lot more thought than I have given it.

[JTG]

David,
Those are some good things you listed to measure. You do not have to get down to only eight items. Some of your items listed would fall under sub categories. For example, you have several under tracking, you could bulk them.
He sells a kit that can be used and there is also various computer programs like CompuPed. But I have been keeping records for years with simple journals,each year, with timelines at learning and health milestones.

[1bludawg]

Interesting and useful information John but it seems like a man would have to work with many many pups to extract that information.I guess some likeminded partners would really help.
Personally i don't really like raising pups because so few of them make what i want.Even when they're out of top dogs .Some people might call dogs that can do it all on bobcat"a perfect dog" but i've hunted with a few and none were perfect but they sure were good .
Most of my crosses are outcrosses and you just don't seem to get a high percentage of pups that make it that way .
I've become a fan of linebreeding and inbreeding to get that consistency and up my percentage of good dogs .Thought and research are critical in close breeding.
The Reckless dog i have is heavily linebred on S.R . Diamond Jim .He has Warrens ole Dancer dog in his pedigree top and bottom in the same spot .He's looking good and has several littermates doing a fine job .Hopefully he'll finish out to my liking .

[david]

I guess maybe that is why he said the same thing ten times in the second and third paragraph. Lol.

Must be important.

Sure wish we all could afford to work with that many pups. Nothing like the anticipation and satisfaction of watching them turn it on. For him it was much simpler I think, because it seems that nearly every aspect he bred for was physical. Most of them could be seen without ever working the dog. You could sure evaluate a ton of dogs that way. I suppose that is why most of our hunting dogs go back to kings and nobility who could hire full time staff.

[BAR BAR 2]

I am going to be buying some of the books referenced in the article. The different aspects involved with the breeding process has always fascinated me and I think this is one subject it would be impossible to ever consider oneself to have mastered. One of the best dog breeders I have ever known started breeding rats just so he could see how dominant and recessive traits were passed on. That really helped him get his start and then he moved on to breeding fighting chickens. By the time he started in breeding his Plotts, he was what I would call very knowledgeable.



Tex

[JTG]

It speeds up the process if you start with a family of hounds that already has a high inbred coefficient. His work is nothing new, but there is some very useful information and you really have to read between the lines. That is, be willing to go through many to get one, easy to say but hard to do. Working with others, who have the same family is very helpful and the further they live apart the better, since the environment always has a vote. It’s useful to start with mice and chickens, however those experiments have already been well documented and available for public use.
Robin, try this IC calculator, I have found that many breeders who thought there hounds were bred close, where not close at all . http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.p ... =ok&lng=en In addition, your correct in that if you take a outstanding in-bred hound and cross it with an outstanding un-related of any breed of hound, there is a very good chance that you will get a few great hounds from that litter. You just will not have much luck using those hounds to use for improving your future breeding program.
http://www.gdcinstitute.org/Willis.pdf

[JTG]

Some service dogs are in the 50% plus range. Unless you use ten or more generations you will get a false or not accurate IC. 37% is higher than 95% of most breeders in any breed, most will find it to be under 12%.
High to me would be in the 70% plus range, to reach 90% or above, you would have to breed 20 generations of brother x Sister crosses or there about.

[1bludawg]

Diamond Jim only shows 1 time in Reckless's 7 generation pedigree
but i know him to be in there numerous times further back on both sides.His paternal great grandmother goes back to D. Jim around 18 times . To get the Inbred Coefficient i take it I need to know how many times ? I wonder if the UKC could supply me with that information?
It's also my understanding that the higher coefficients are less desirable because of the likelyhood of serious faults and defects showing up.It seems like that would turn around as breeders work to eliminate those faults.
I don't know if i'm smart enough to get my head wrapped around all of this but its a fascinating subject .

[JTG]

Robin,
Just take your UKC papers out and go to this link. http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.p ... =ok&lng=en
On the top of the page is the inbreeding calculator. Next go to the number of generations and move to ten. Fill in the blanks off of your hounds papers. It is very important to double check your spelling to make sure you get the names correct in the blanks.( The name on the UKC papers.)
Click continue and it will calculate and give you the results.
Yes, it would increase the likelihood of serious faults and yes it would turn around, as breeders work to eliminate those faults. It's counter-intuitive.
Yes, you are smart enough. I have found that the " experts" made it hard to understand because they do not understand and write books that no one understands.
Once you are done, I will show you how it will be useful.

[1bludawg]

I'll try that John if i can get it done on a smart phone(no computer ).
I'm thinking the IC would be high because he's in the pedigree so many times but then again because he's so far back that will probably lower it considerably?

[JTG]

The smart phone will be a real pain, no need to take that amount of time. Yes, if he is far back it will make a big difference.