Dual Sire Litter

[Jeff Eberle]

This is a few years from happening if at all. I hunt a established line of dogs , And 15 months ago I picked up a pup that was of a cross I always wanted to try .This may not make any sense but as for me I don't feel the line I am hunting is missing anything . But I see things in this dog that I would like to add to this line ( Kind of like new chrome wheels for your truck you don't need them , But you want them) So here is my thought, I'm raising a female form the established line that is from a brother sister cross that if she makes the grade and when I need pups I would like to breed her doing a dual sire litter one sire being of the same Line and the other being the outside blood I want to cross into this line. The reason I want to do a dual sire litter is so not to waste a breeding on the out cross if it doesn't work. So I know all pups , sire's and dam will need to be DNA'ed to know who is who. So what I'm asking is can this only be done by AI or can it be done natures way and if so how would it be timed. Have any of you guys done this and if so how and what is your take on the whole thing?

[dwalton]

Breed one male as soon as she will take a male Wait three days and breed the other male. DNA will tell the fathers. Breeding early in a heat cycle will give you more females most times if that is the only time you breed but less pups. This is my experience. Dewey

[Jeff Eberle]

Dewey what has been your experience in %of pups from first male breed to second male breed. And how many time would you put each male with her ?

[dwalton]

Jeff I have never breed two sires. What I have done is on a first time female I have bred as early as she will take and have gotten small litters 3 to 5 pups and more females. If I bred twice 9 day and 12 day I get a litter of 10 to 12 pups. From What I read and experience is that the one time early will produce females and the latter breeding will split the litter. The sperm that produce females are hardier and will live longer than the male sperm. The male determines the sex of the pups so it really can vary. My Tanner male that I have bred 5 times will throw mostly males. The books say that you should get just over 50\50 with a few more males. Not always the case, you get what you get. Some people will put vinegar in the water to change the acidic in the female to produce more females. Does it work I don't have a clue. What does seem to make a difference is how often the male has been bred. Some older males that have not been bred to produce very few if any pups. Good luck Dewey

[pegleg]

I haven't done it myself. However one of my stud dogs was bred to a female and then another male was bred to her a couple days latter. It worked is the short answer. The long one is there's a lot of things to consider . one in your case being females bred to a outcross male will show more fertility towards that male then the linebred male. Why I'm not sure but it happens. I understand the "advantages" but in the over all scheme it does add more things to worry about. Pup size growth rates maturity rates etc. I would do some reading on it first.

[Jeff Eberle]

[1bludawg]

Jeff,I did it once although it wasn't intentional.I had a walker colored bitch that i bred twice to a bluetick/black&tan male after the second breeding she got bred(about an hour )to a red and white male.Both males were cat dogs.Anyway my ole dog had 9 healthy pups, 7 out of the bt/b&t male and 2 out of the red and white male. 2 males -5 females from the bt/b&t and 2 males from the other male .The bt /b&t male was from registered stock on both sides .My ole female and the red/white male were mixed breed (grade dogs ).Don't know if that helps but those are the results .

[Jeff Eberle]

1bludawg, Did you dna the pups ? Did you notice any size difference in pups from one sire to the other ?

[1bludawg]

No,i went by color and hunting ability on what sire they were out of. 2 of those males were red and white .The last pup born was a red /white male .All pups were fat and healthy ! Oh ,one guy had his ticked female DNAed proveing she was out of the bt/b&t male .On a side note when i breed a female i put her with the male on the first day she'll take again on the third day and the last day which is usually the 7th day .I never have any size problems unless its with the runt of the litter .

[1bludawg]

The color of pups was:
4 black and tans
3 ticked
2 red and white

[Jeff Eberle]

I will have to dna these for sure if I do it, because this outcross male is colored up just like some of the dogs in this line. My main concern is what pegleg brought up about the female showing more fertility to the outcross male. I know that it will never come out perfect but would like to have at least two or more from each sire Just wondering if it could be more controlled with a AI breeding.

[1bludawg]

I would suggest natural breeding because AI is just done with a syringe unless the sperm is frozen and then it gets real expensive .Breed the related male first and then the outcross male a day or two later .Sperm will survive about 7 days in the female .This might give the related males sperm a leg up on the outcross male .The outcross males sperm could be more mobile than the related male.It will be somewhat of a gamble in any case but you'll probably get pups from both males.You might check with JTG on here to get his thoughts.

[Henefer-hound-hunter]

Iv never had a split litter with my hounds, but my wife raises miniature schnauzers and the first 5 batches out of the same sire same dam were 3 males and 1 female every time. Then on the 6 batch I bred her day 1 and day 3 to my male, and then on day 6 I put her out in the yard with my male he caught her almost immediately, then about an hour later I came out and the neighbors jack Russell had dug under the fence and was locked up with her(wish I would have shot that little bastard) he could have only caught her that one time. When she had the pups 1 male and 1 female were pure schnauzer and 2 males were from that jack Russell. I had them all DNA tested so the two could be registered. So my male bred her 3 times and he bred her once and the both conceived two pups, don't know what to take from that it's just the only time I had a split litter:)

[Jeff Eberle]

I'm sure its one of those things that works better when you don't want it to then when you try to make it work.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

It has nothing to do about what day a dog is bred. She CONCEIVES when she is ready. You can breed her 2x a day from day 9 to 15, she is going to take on the day her eggs are ready. Sperm lives about 3 days once inside the female, they do say female sperm lives longer, but male sperm are faster. Females determine the litter size, ie how many pups she has. But the stud dog does determine the sexes of the pups. If you want to go about this right, have her progesterone tested so you know exactly what day she is ready to take, then either breed her to both back to back, or collect both and AI with semen mixed from both at the same time... Being related has nothing to do with who she will conceive with and who she won't. Won't make a difference in litter size and size of pups, unless your breeding her to an enormous dog. But I am assuming we're talking the same breed.

There are ways to make this a pretty much sure fire method. You can do the testing, then take her in for a surgical AI, they could put semen directly from one male into one uterine horn, and semen from the other into the other. So each horn could ONLY take from one or the other. DNA is still obviously required and honestly is the most expensive part. The progesterone tests and even surgical AI isn't as much at DNA for 3 parents and 8-10 pups PLUS the UKC and AKC charge a special rate of ridiculous for dual sired litters.