How many lions have you seen together?

[Wimpy]

Kevin,

The way I read the Utah proclamation is that you cannot pursue any adult lion that is accompanied by another lion, but you could pursue two subadults. It really needs to be cleared up.
Page 22 of the 2009-2010 Utah Cougar Guidebook:
Whether you are harvesting or pursuing cougar, you may not:
Pursue or take a female cougar with kittens • (or any cougar accompanied by young).

Pursue or take kittens with spots (or any • cougar accompanied by an adult). See page 36 for the definition of a kitten with spots.

[Ike]

Pursue or take kittens with spots (or any • cougar accompanied by an adult). See page 36 for the definition of a kitten with spots.[/b]

The wording "any cougar accompanied by an adult" is clearly referring to the pursuit of spotted kittens.
The way I read that is an attempt to protect young lions, although the wording is a little confusing. I don't believe it is worded that you can't run two lions, but simply that you can't start a lion with kittens, cause a rule like that would be silly.

Example: three lions cross the road, an adult female, a young tom and a super tom track. There is no way I read that wording as not being legal to start those tracks. Matter fact, I seriously doubt a man or woman alive wouldn't dump dogs in that situation. To me the law is clear, and that is to protect kittens and so a guy better understand the difference between an adult female and two young lions and the situation I just described. And I think most of us can as well, nothing wrong with dumping on three lions tracks just have enough knowledge to know that you aren't looking at a bitch track with kittens..........

ike

[Big Mike]

Your law is worded a little funny which leaves it open for interpetation which means two deferent officers could enforce it differently. A guy could get into trouble that way. Definitely could be worded better

But as I read it seems the intent is with females with spotted kittens.

[Kevin D]

Kevin,

The way I read the Utah proclamation is that you cannot pursue any adult lion that is accompanied by another lion, but you could pursue two subadults. It really needs to be cleared up.
Page 22 of the 2009-2010 Utah Cougar Guidebook:
Whether you are harvesting or pursuing cougar, you may not:
Pursue or take a female cougar with kittens • (or any cougar accompanied by young).

Pursue or take kittens with spots (or any • cougar accompanied by an adult). See page 36 for the definition of a kitten with spots.

Because the line in question is dealing specifically with the definition of a kitten, the phrase "any cougar accompanied by an adult" is referring only to kittens, with or without spots........or so I would argue. The line in parenthesis was added, IMO, only to broaden coverage to include lion kittens without spots traveling with their mother.

I am not an attorney, but I do deal a lot in contract law where wording and context makes all the difference in the world. If you challenged this in court you may possibly have a local magistrate without a legal background rule against you, but I am confident that there is no way an experienced judge would let a conviction stand based on the wording and context of the proclamtion if what you were running was indeed two legally adult cougars. Again, this was why I suspect charges were dropped in the case houndnem described.

If you reasonably believe that a double set of tracks was made by two adult lions and not a female with kittens, you are within your legal right to turn loose regardless of what any fishcop may tell you.

[houndnem]

Well according to the head of the dnr in the cedar city feild office, If they could have proved that there was another lion track with the one we killed we would have been prosicuted. That guy was very neutral and he aggreed that the dfinition was open to interpretation. The only problem was that their interp was that any cougar accompanied by another cougar was by law a kitten. even though that cat was clearly no kitten, if there would have been another cat there they would have took us down to china town!! the only reason they ever brought charges was that guy that collared the cat has a hard on for me and he claimed that one week before he had collared that cat with it's mother. My guess is that if that was true it was probably breeding a female in heat. that is the other reason that law is defined that way. they don't want you chasing multiple cats traveling together because you will interupt their breeding. Even though that law has lots of gray area, the dnr will always err on the side of a conviction. so I guess you guys that chase multiple adult cats, better look over your shoulder cuz if someone catches you doing it and turns you in, you might be in trouble.

[Ike]

Well you might have touched on the reason they dog piled you and that was they must not like you for some reason. The wording and what the wordage addresses is kittens, and I believe anybody with any common sense or education can see that. There would be NO reason to attempt to prevent legal pursuit or harvest of an adult lion traveling with another adult lion, none what so ever other than it not being a legal cat and having spots. I believe somebody was blowing smoke up your ass.............

Furthermore, just because there are two or three tracks across a road does not mean those lions are traveling together. I realize alot of COs may not know that but anybody that's ran dogs very long soon learns that a lion will travel through and another may follow for a short distance and never accompany the first lion. Besides if you're hunting in the dirt I doubt you'll find very many people other than a good hounddogger that can ever find the track you start. Hell sakes, I've been to alot of lion and bear trees and never found one single track along the way--and by the way that is 100 percent legal!

ike

[houndnem]

Trust me Ike, I hashed this over with alot of different dnr reps and also was present at the rack when they discussed it. not leagal to pusue multiple cat regardless of age size or sex. But do whatever you want, I don't care if they ticket ya I just hate to see others have to go through what I did. I was totally obliviouse to how this law worked till I got to deal with it first hand. the way you and I "logically" look at this is not the same way dnr looks at it. half of those guys have never hunted lion nor do they have a clue about their behavior. The other houndsmen down here are adimate about this law and if your runnin in snow they will back track and see what you are running every time. up where you run if your on private land and indian ground etc you probably aren't used to seenig 20 or 30 other truck loads of dogs come by while you are turned out on one, but down here better watch your back. they are all jealouse and just waiting for ya to screw up!!! maybe you ought to call some of the dwr guys you know and ask how they define it. I would be interested to know. As for me I'm gona catch my cats one at a time unless there is a couple miles between the tracks.

[George Streepy]

What a pain in the ass. What it comes down to is paying out money. I hate to say it because I usually understand, and most of the time appreciate, why different laws were written. I got myself into a little trouble (non hunting related) and when my attorney walked into the court room he and the prosecutor were on first name basis. He referred to the judge as Your Honor, but the judge called my attorney Kenny. If the courts weren't getting my money, their buddy would. When we left the court room my attorney made a joke about it. I was simply a cash machine.

Like I say, I can usually understand why a law was written. Even if I don't agree with it. I understand why they do not want kittens harassed, but if there are decent sized tracks, its not gonna have spots.

I turned out on a large tom track a few years ago, treed a female with 3 sub adults. In Washington all would have been legal for harvest. We left them to grow. Would that be illegal in Utah? Sounds like an up for interpretation law to me. Those are the worse kind in my opinion. What if you rig them without seeing tracks?

I have treed some nice cats with collars. I decided to let them go simply for the reason that we payed for the collar to get put on. Up here the collared cats are helping to get us some hunting back. I will catch one that doesn't mess with the study. I would tend to think that they were hassling Houndnem in retaliation. The problem is, if cited, you loose even if you win.

[Yard Dog]

Just went back and read the cougar guidebook. Looks like you can't run a lion with spots (good). You can't run a lion accompanied by young (kitten?...good) or accompanied by an adult (two adult toms, sub and adult, two adult females..ect...)Huhhh???? But you can run two sub adults...WTF!!!!!!

Golf claps for the DWR.... They just keep getting better and better.....

[Ike]

I still believe the wordage was mishandled and the target of something like that is to prevent a guy from running female lions with young. It may be (although I doubt it) that the wildlife managers in this stat don't figure enough houndsmen know the difference in adult lions and young so they've broadened the writing to scar off people from mistaking an two adult lions with an adult and young. Other than that, I see no reason for such silly word use, but I'll check it out with my sources and if they read it that way we need to lobby to change such a silly deal!

ike

[Idaho Bison]

As long as laws are up to interpretation you will get different answers from different wardens. I bypass the wardens and get my answers from their regional supervisor. I've asked thee different wardens and got as many answers.

[houndnem]

The regional officer down here was one of the people that interped it as you can't run any two cats. he agreed that it was silly, but offered no change to the way it reads. I am interested in more people looking into this and talking to reps in their regions to see if that's how it is meant to be interpereted.

[BEAR HUNTER]

As a retired cop I know a little of how this interpretation works. Generally it is left to the officers who will cite/arrest and then the judge will make the determination. The supervisors will usually only look into it when pressed by the public for an answer.
An example. Here in Ca the Penal Code defines a loaded firearm as having the ammunition IN CONTACT with the gun. This means touching. If the gun is on the front seat of your car and a bullet is lying next to it touching the gun it is loaded. If you have a loaded magazine sitting next to it but not touch it is not loaded. My agency went by the theory that if ammuntion was excessible the gun was concidered loaded. This is differant then what the PC reads. I contacted our departments legal advisor. He issued a letter directing officers to NOT arrest unless the PC definition was met. The legal advisor told me that court decisions were split 50/50. Some followed the exact wording of the law while others looked at the INTENT of the law.
My point in this story is each officer will interpret the law his own way unless they are directed by their supervisors to do otherwise. You may be found innocent in court but you will have spent a lot of money on attorney fees. And even if you are found not guilty wardens who disagree with that will still make the arrest and let the D/A decide to prosecute or not.

[Ike]

ike

[houndnem]

I read the law again in the guidbook. not much to interperet, any cougar accomponied by another adult. that is exactly how it appears in the guidbook.

Thanks for the concern on this issue Ike. I know if anybody can get to the top and get this changed it will be you. let me know what you need me to do.