Corn based Dog food

[Ker_man]

Ok guys and gals is there such a thing as a good dog food with corn as the first ingredient
I'd like to hear your thoughts. Terry

[FullCryHounds]

No, All canines are meat eaters and should be eating meat, not vegetables. Houndsmen expect thier dogs to be able to run all day long and then feed then some of the worst food on the market like Ol Roy, or don't feed them in the morning before they go hunting. The only excuse I've heard is "Ive been feeding this crap for years and my dogs do fine on it." Yea, they'll live on it but they will never reach thier top potential. You can pick up meat for free just about anywhere, doesn't make sense to not feed your dogs the best you can. The only reason most dogs get fed lousy dry food is because its much easier for the houndsmen to pick up a cheap bag of dog food then cut up or grind up some good meat for them.

[Ker_man]

Thanks Dean, I'd like to keep hearing responses about the corn. When you mentioned feeding the dogs in the morning before hunting you got my interest. Would you please explain your thoughts on this. Formerly I'd heard not to feed before running the dogs and some content on foxhound sites even advised not to feed raw meat the night before a competition since it takes longer to digest. Terry

[FullCryHounds]

Imagine if the dog mushers used that thinking. 14 days on the Iditirod trail and couldn't feed thier dogs because they were going to run them that day. Our hounds are no different, they are just as athletic and need just as many calories each day.
That thinking is from the old timers and isn't based on any facts about dog nutrition. How well do you think your dog is doing without any food since the day before. When someone tells you that you shouldn't feed your dog the same morning, ask for some written documentation from a nutritionist. There isn't any because no dog nutritionist will ever tell you that. My father in law was a VP with Carnation for years and was very involved with dog nutrition. I had many conversations with him about feeding dogs. I told him that many guys don't feed their dogs the same morning they hunt them. He said that is probably the worst thing you can do for your dogs.

[Trueblue]

No, All canines are meat eaters and should be eating meat, not vegetables. .

That is not correct.And here is an article that explains why.

By John R. Moffett
The dog food industry would like you to believe that dogs can eat just about anything, including lots of corn mixed with low-grade meat meal, and they will do just fine. A growing number of pet advocates, veterinarians and websites have come out in recent years saying that dogs are carnivores and therefore should only be fed a diet of raw meat. So who is right? Neither, of course.

There are 3 basic classifications of animals based on diet; carnivores (eat meat), omnivores (eat most anything edible) and herbivores (eat plants primarily). Dogs are classified taxonomically as carnivores. They clearly have teeth and jaws suited to a carnivorous lifestyle. However, in terms of a healthy dog diet, there are many other factors to take into consideration, including physiology, metabolism, digestion and even taste preference.

So doesn't the classification of dogs as carnivores settle the issue? Absolutely not. Bears and raccoons are carnivores, but they are clearly adapted to an omnivorous lifestyle. Giant pandas are also classified as carnivores, despite the fact that they have a diet consisting of bamboo. Evolution can do funny things with animals, so classification won’t help settle this issue.

Another notable dog nutrition issue revolves around the ability of dogs to digest grains and vegetables. Some websites I have read say that dogs do not digest plant material. I have read through a number of scientific studies on this issue and they invariably report that vegetable proteins, carbohydrates and fats are all very digestible by dogs. The digestive tracts of animals give clues as to what kind of diet they can eat. The shorter the length of small intestine, the less capable the animals are of digesting plant materials. Herbivores have very complex and long digestive tracts, whereas humans have somewhat simpler and shorter digestive tracts. If you compare the length of the small intestine in cats (obligate carnivores) with that of a dog, the dog’s small intestine is longer relative to the animal’s body length (4:1 intestine/body length ratio in cats, 6:1 in dogs). Based on digestive system anatomy, and plant digestibility, it would seem that dogs are adapted to eat a diet that includes vegetable material.

The next issue is amylase, the enzyme that digests starch. Grains are mostly starch, so an animal would need to make amylase if it is going to digest starch. People have amylase in their saliva, so starch digestion begins when you chew your food. Dogs, like cats, don’t have amylase in their saliva. But this ignores the fact that dogs secrete large amounts of amylase from their pancreas. Since meat doesn’t contain starch, why would dogs need to make amylase in their pancreas? Obviously because they are equipped to eat and digest plant-derived starches. Foxes, which are closely related to dogs, eat just about anything in the wild, from bugs to birds, to fruits, grains and berries. They too are very adaptable “carnivores”.

“Obligate carnivores” are those that require a diet almost exclusively of meat. Vegetable matter in the diet is probably of little nutritional value. Cats are obligate carnivores, and one of their dietary requirements is a compound found exclusively in meat and animal tissues known as taurine. Taurine is essential for all animals, but because it is absent in plant material, herbivores and omnivores must synthesize it from other amino acids in their diet. In order for obligate carnivores to get enough taurine, they must eat other animals that contain taurine in their meat and organs. Cats need taurine in their diet, and they are obligate carnivores.


So what about taurine in dogs? Dogs can synthesize their own taurine, indicating that they are not obligate carnivores in terms of physiology. But that is not the end of the story, because not all dog breeds are the same. Large dog breeds tend to have relatively shorter intestines than smaller dogs (relative to body length). In addition, larger dogs can suffer from taurine deficiency (due to higher excretion in their urine) more often than smaller dogs. As such, large dogs probably require more meat in their diets than small dogs to ensure good health. But including vegetables and grains is still a very good idea for well-rounded nutrition.

Will feeding my dog only raw meat be bad for them? Probably not, unless it is wild game containing parasites, or if it has certain types of bacterial contamination. Dogs are very adaptable, and can do well on different diets, just like people. But also like people, a varied diet is almost certainly better than a uniform one. The idea propagated by pet food makers and vets that dogs need a very consistent (read monotonous) diet is pure fallacy. There is no scientific research showing that a good, varied and balanced diet is less healthy than a constant, unchanging diet. It also doesn’t make any sense logically. A constant, unchanging diet based on the exact same ingredients (including only meat) is more likely to encourage the buildup of low-level toxins in the food source, and could lead to the development of certain deficiencies due to the lack of variety.

Feeding dogs only meat is also environmentally unfriendly, unless you hunt for your meat (which could contain parasites), or get it from a very small, local farmer. The meat industry is one of the more polluting industries in the world, fouling streams, rivers, lakes and even bays nearby and creating “dead zones” where little or no oxygen remains. Also, raising animals for meat requires extra grain production, whereby several pounds of grain are required to produce each pound of meat. If every dog owner only fed their dogs raw meat every day, it would drive up the cost of meat, and the meat industry would create even more pollution than it already does.

So the answer to the question posed at the outset, “are dogs carnivores?” is - taxonomically yes, dietarily no. Dogs not only can be healthy on a diet consisting of meat, grains and vegetables, they will do exceptionally well on one. In fact, many dogs love the taste of grains such as rice and oatmeal. Of course many dogs will choose meat over vegetables if given a choice, but don’t most people have the same preference? That doesn’t mean that eating only meat is the healthiest diet. Plants contain many compounds that are healthful, and even anti-carcinogenic, and these compounds are not found in meats. What is true about eating vegetables being good for the human diet is also true about the diet of dogs.

If you feed your dog only raw meat, they will probably be just fine, but I have seen no scientific studies that show that a raw meat-only diet is better (more “optimal”) than a balanced cooked diet. If you know of one in a science journal (rather than a web site), please pass it along to me. A raw meat diet is environmentally less friendly, more expensive, and more likely to contain pathogenic bacteria or parasites. On top of that, there is no convincing evidence I have seen that it is healthier than a balanced, cooked diet including meats, grains and other non-meat items. I should probably mention that non-pet owners would be right to point out that many people in the world rarely get regular meat-containing meals because meat production capacity is not able to provide sufficiently for all the people on earth.

Finally, you may ask, what do we feed our dogs? We feed our dogs a diet of about 60-70% cooked meat (usually chicken or beef) mixed with home-made baked kibble that we make mostly from grains (rice and oatmeal), with added eggs, cheese, olive oil and meat. So they do get a diet composed mostly of meat, but they love the kibble and will do tricks for it. They also get occasional multivitamins and calcium. I am sure that if we reduced the meat percentage in their diets to 50% or even lower, they would still be just as healthy, energetic and happy. Dogs and people have coevolved as partners on earth for the last 20,000 to 40,000 years, and we are both very adaptable in our lifestyles, and diets.

[FullCryHounds]

Read the last paragraph of your own article. Pretty much sums up exactly what I'm trying to point out. Not a single mention of corn anywhere. CORN is NOT what you should be feeding your dogs, anytime. And almost every houndsman feeds exactly that. The fact is that most everyone feeds ONLY a dry, corn based food to their dogs. Why, its cheap and much easier to pop open that bag of dry food and plop it down in front of your dog.

[Trueblue]

Is that all you read was the last paragraph ? Here is another good common sense article for you.It is written by Patrick Burns and can be found at Terrierman.com along with several other good articles about canine nutrition.Just type canine nutrition into their search engine.

By Patrick Burns
DUMP 60 MILLION POUNDS OF TOXIC PET FOOD on to America's shelves, kill a few thousand dogs and cats, and what do you get out of it? Lawsuits and chest-thumping food fadists.

This piece is not about the lawsuits -- it's about the food fadists.

To tell you the truth, I could care less what anyone feeds their dog. I figured out a long time ago that a lot of people are pretty silly, and there's no stopping them, even if you wanted to.

The good news is that most Americans are pretty sensible and moderate, and give their dogs decent bagged food with perhaps a few low-salt table scraps. In almost all cases, the dogs thrive. How could they not? As Tony Buffington, a veterinary professor at Ohio State University, told The Wall Street Journal back in March when the dog food story was still about fat dogs and price-gouging companies ripping off the rubes:

"The nutritional requirements of neutered, sedentary adult animals are so low that they could be met by anything."



And yet, we DO have a lot of crackpots on either end of the pet food debate, don't we?

On the one hand we have the Vegans who want to raise their cats and dogs on tofu and barley sprouts. Good luck with that.

On the other side we have the folks that lecture everyone that dogs are wolves and should be eating raw meat or some other concoction that they've come up with. Good luck with that too.

Of course, both sides are espousing pure nonsense. A dog is not a wolf any more than it is a cow. A vegan who wants his dog or cat to eat only tofu has not accepted a dog for what it truly is. By the same token, anyone who thinks their dog is a wolf has also not accepted what their animal really is. A dog is not a wolf. A dog is a dog.

As I have noted before, most dogs and most wolves do not have the same estrus cycles, do not have the same pack hierarchies, and do not communicate the same way.

A wolf and a dog will not interbreed except under the most artificial of conditions. When a pack of wolves meets a dog, what occurs next is called lunch, and the dog is served up as the main course.

What seems to confuse people is that a dog is a carnivore, a pack animal and a canid.

But so what? A bear is carnivore too. So too is a raccoon, a skunk and a coatamundi. Not all carnivores live on pure meat diets.

As for being a pack animal, a lot of animals are "pack" animals, from bees and birds, to humans and lions.

Being a canidae does not tell you much either -- most canids are foxes of one kind or another, and a fox is a true omnivore that will readily eat bread, berries, potatoes, and corn, as well as field mice and baby bunny rabbits.

At this point in the conversation someone is sure to point out that dogs are classified by some taxonomists as a type of wolf -- Canis Lupus, familiaris.

But again, so what? Taxonomy is a system invented by humans, and humans are hardly the experts on what an animal is or is not.

A taxonomer, for example, will tell you that a barred owl and a spotted owl are two different species, but in fact these two birds are not very fussy about this distinction, and will readily interbreed and produce fecund young.

Meanwhile, a wolf and a dog are quite certain they do not belong to the same family and will attack each on sight. Who is the expert here?

It is axiomatic, among true dog people, that the dog is the expert and not the theoretician. And a dog will tell you that while it is a canid and a pack animal, it is not a wolf.

It is not Canis lupus familiaris, as some taxonomists would have it, but Canis familiaris -- it's own distinct species that not only looks different, but acts different at the most basic levels of sexual reproduction and communication.

Yet, if you listen to the dog food theorists, they would have you believe that packs of poodles once roamed the earth.

Here's a hint: it never happened.

You can take 200 dogs of all breeds, toss them into a large pen, and let them go at it for 100 years, but what you will get out of the other end is not a wolf, but a dog.

And it will not be a large dog, but a "pyedog" or pariah dog about the size of a jackal, but with a rounder body and face.

Such animals can be found all over the world, scavenging on the edges of dumps, from the Philippines to Oaxaca, from Algeria to Romania, from South Africa to South America.

What do pariah dogs eat?

They eat what dogs have eaten since the beginning of time: whatever it is we put in front of them.

And in most cases, the dogs do quite fine. After all, it's not like a wild dog lives very long.

Pyedogs die at epic rates from starvation -- same as fox and wolves. Fox kit mortality is about 50 percent and wolf cub mortality is about the same. A wolf that manages to make it into adulthood can be expected to be dead by age 7 or 8, a fox by age three or four.

This is one of the great ironies missed by the food fadists: If you feed your dog the cheapest store-bought food you can find, it will eat much better that any wolf in the wild.

But of course food fadists are not really selling common sense and good nutrition, are they? Food fadists are selling "secret knowledge."

In this sense, food fadists are a bit like Kennedy assassination buffs, UFO junkies and convicted felon Kevin Trudeau who constantly pops up on late-night television selling you "health food secrets that the doctors don't want you to know about."

Food fadist are to nutrition what "phrenologists" are to neurologists, "astrologers" are to astronomers, and "aromatherapists" are to psychiatrists -- the quack end of the spectrum.

A food fadist may toss around words like "holistic" and "homeopathy" but these words are meaningless semantic gloss designed to dress up weak philosophies in the trappings of pseudo-science. Go ahead and put rouge on the pig, but don't expect folks not to laugh out loud if you're silly enough to take it to the dance.

Holistic medicine and homeopathy proponents are, for the most part, inventing potions and mixing them with wild claims and leavening the whole mixture with a little common sense. They are offering nothing that a Nigerian witch doctor will not sell you for a packet of cigarettes and a few naira. When push comes to shove, however, if you get sick in Africa, you had better ditch the witch and get a real medical doctor with access to serious antibiotics. Ditto for your dog.

The funny thing about a lot of self-styled holistic food experts is that right after they lecture you about how a dog is really just a wolf, they will often turn around and tell you that they feed their own dog a diet of rice and chicken, or rice and lamb, or a mixture of rice, potatoes, peas and carrots.

What, no mice and rats? No roadkill? Wow -- we sure did leave that "natural" diet behind pretty darn quick.

In fact, rice is not a "natural" food for a wolf any more than a chicken is. Both are products of tropical Asia. What rice and lamb have got going for them is that they are two of the least reactive foods when it comes to skin allergies in dogs.

And so now we come to it: skin allergies in dogs.

Now here's the joker in the deck when it comes to skin allergies: 1) Most skin allergies in dogs have a genetic component, and; 2) The most common type of food allergy is an allergy to beef and milk.

Beef and milk? Woops -- so much for that "wolf diet" stuff.

In fact, the main reason we are seeing such a quick rise in skin allergies in dogs is that the genetic base of most dog breeds is now exceedingly narrow and the result is a weaker immune system. That's what happens when you start off with a very limited number of dogs in a closed registry system like we have in the AKC, and then continue to boil down the stock through dominant sire selection.

This is a topic I have written about before, but it's a topic that the holistic dog folks generally stay away from for fear of alienating their core client base -- folks that are in love with purebred dogs that have skin problems. Shooting the dog is not an option that their client base wants to hear, nor do their clients want to be told that they "bought a lemon" and should have stayed away from the AKC. It's much easier -- and much more lucrative -- to talk about the problems with dog food.
And so, instead of talking about genetics, the holistic food folks say it's all about diet secrets. How very "Kevin Trudeau" of them! You don't have cancer because of your genetic predisposition -- you have cancer because you didn't buy my book or my diet.

The good news here, is that most dogs do not have skin allergies, and most dogs do really well on any kind of commercial food given to them.

The main problem facing dogs in America today is not poor nutrition caused by a lack of calories or essential vitamins and minerals, but obesity caused by too much food and too little exercise.

Rather than too few vitamins and minerals in the dog food, the problem -- especially in large breed dogs -- is too many vitamins and minerals (especial calcium) which produce too rapid a growth pattern which can exacerbate underlying hip dysplasia and other joint issues.
So what should dog owners do when it comes to feeding their dogs?
Whatever they want. That's the point of this post. Read up and look around and use common sense. Billions of dogs have been fed bagged food for more than 100 years, and most seem to have done fine with it.
That said, if you want to cook up a special meal for your dog every night for the rest of your life, go ahead and do that. If you are a vegan and want to feed your dog only seitan and rice, it will probably live as long as any wolf in the wild. Ditto if you want to feed your dog nothing but fresh deer meat shot in your backyard.
For those who REALLY want answers, however, I encourage you to order: "Dog Food Secrets "They" Don't Want You To Know About". Operators are standing by, and all proceeds will be donated to help brain damaged children.

[tomtom]

Heres my dumb reply.

Why not feed puppy food/dog food or just puppy food and less of it? A lot of people say it's too high in protien.... Seriously? Aren't we supposed to feed puppy chow because of the mineral/protein content to puppies(even though some yard dog owners feed straight dog chow to pups and they grow ok)? Why not just feed puppy food their whole lives if it's better?

[Ker_man]

TomTom, I've started using puppy chow again and they seem to have changed it at least in looks and flavor the dogs love it (corn first ingredient) and the stools are good and firm.
Not sure if the added minerals could hurt a dog later in life.

Dean, I think you might have a good idea with a light feed before a hunt, probably two hrs before I think I'll try this next winter.

Trueblue, I agree that dogs need more than just red meat though I don't claim to know what is best. In the wild they would eat the whole prey animal digestive tract etc. which would be different from just red meat.

At this time I'm feeding ground beef (bone included) and some dog food, I'm not fussy about what kind with all that beef. In the winter I feed more of the beef and a bit of dog food but need to feed extra fat since the beef seems to be too lean.The supplier claims to add chicken fat but I doubt there is much of that.

Heard stories of old timers cooking corn meal and fat, it must have been hard to feed a lot of dogs before commercial dog food and freezers. Terry

[CatCrazed]

The problem with corn and bone in the dogs cannot digest it so therefore has no nutritional value. Not to mention a large Sharp piece could cit the stomach of intestines. Some say not to feed before any physical activities because of twisted gut. It's more of a problem with breeds besides hounds but the weight of the food in stomach can cause the stomach to flip and twist the lower intestine. Some dogs stomachs arnt attached to the backbone. Also not common on hounds . I have an hr drive to the woods or soak the cibble with a lil water or broth. If u ate feeding raw meatake sure you deworm regularly. The dogs need a balanced diet vegetable and protein. Not necessarily meat. Check out nutro dog food its high quality high protein my dogs do great on it. But it is pricey. But what is your hound worth to you? And I know that we all don't make the same money bit of you can't afford food just send me your catdogs. This is just an opinion based on research. Happy hunting Bryan

[Bearkiller]

What about the simple fact that you have to feed ALOT more of the corn based dog feed to keep weight on? Sometimes twice as much. Especially in the winter. I think spending a little more at the store saves enough money at the feed pan to balance it out and alot times it's cheaper. I also feed alot of meat scraps, mostly in the winter. In the end it all depends on the dog. I have a dog that could eat hardly any cheap dog food and keep her weight and others that need more of the better dog food to be maintained the same way. No point in arguing with a bunch of hard headed houndoggers about it. LOL BTW, whoever posted the post from the terrier forum, that was a whole bunch of opinion and not alot of fact.

[Ker_man]

Hey guys I'm not arguing with anyone! I'M interested in your opinions. I think a lot of us have developed ways of doing things over the years that have worked for them, some want to open a bag and feed and some want to experiment and try other things. Catcrazed you don't want my catdogs and I guess you could easly buy good ones
Bearkiller you are right, dogs needs are different. Sometimes a good lump of fat is all that is required with what ever dog food is fed to handle that hard keeper. Terry

[houndnem]

Thanks Dean, I'd like to keep hearing responses about the corn. When you mentioned feeding the dogs in the morning before hunting you got my interest. Would you please explain your thoughts on this. Formerly I'd heard not to feed before running the dogs and some content on foxhound sites even advised not to feed raw meat the night before a competition since it takes longer to digest. Terry

he likes dog shit in his box.
ol roy brown bag is meat and bone meal. best bang for your buck you can get by the bag. I won't feed anything with corn in the first part of the ingrediants just a bunch of dog pies to clean up.

[FullCryHounds]

31 years running hounds and I've never had a single one shit in the box. You just have to be smarter then the dog!!

[Trueblue]

Bearkiller,please tell us what the FACTS are and then back up your statements with scientific sources.As you well know the dog food world is loaded with misinformation so please enlighten us as to where we can find the scientific facts that are beyond dispute.