Line Bred Bobcat Hounds???

[Alabama Cathunter]

Dr. Lyle, I have a male and female out of a bitch that are full littermates that I borrowed their mother from a friend to raise some pups because they have the natural ability to double back on a cat. Some people call that cat sense. I also have a half mate that is out of that same bitch that I first recognized first had that quality that is about 4 years old. She just came here with that quality of being able to double back on a cat. The half mates that I first mentioned they will be 2 years old the end of august. Their names are Stonewall jackson is the male his sister name is August for the month they were born. Their older halfmate sister name is dottie. I was thinking about breeding stonewall to dottie. These hounds really dont have any undesireables. I have always been told not to breed this close but the best I can tell by your post you think this is how you achieve what you want in breeding.If this could work it would really help my program. Most hounds have to learn how to run a cat but if I could breed this back into the pack this would really help you think. Waiting for your response, thanks Robert!

[slowandeasy]

alabama cathunter, the dr. lyle you are refering to was the person who published the article of reference. dads dog boy pasted it on here for some extra knowledge for all of us to use. take care, Willy

[Melanie Hampton]

Alabama Cathunter-

I have made 3 crosses on half siblings- Crosses A & B were on the same dogs and cross C- the female was a littermate to the female used it crosses A & B. I very much like the results from those crosses. I did have a recessive color gene show up- non of those pups will be used in my breeding program- but the gene also showed in an outcross made on my male- so it is him throwing it.. Not a result of the crosses being linebred.

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Robert,

I would sure be in favor of Breeding the 1/2 Sibs, or even the Litermates if they are the KIND of Hounds that you like!

This 1/2 sib mating will be building on the common ancestor either the Grand Sire or the Grand Damn which ever they share. That is the Hound that these Pups will most resemble! Look closely at this individual rather than the two ½ Sibs. JMO based on the above articles!

Miss Melanie, what did you decide to breed your nice female to, back to your Brisco/Mabel son?

Is the recessive Color you speak of a undesirable trait in Your Breed….Color is never a consideration in Dad’s Breeding. In Fact his Hounds have turned from Lemon and White to Red with White points….a Fox Hound breeder in NC wrote to say the Red was a sign of DANGER in Fox Hound Breeding…the only danger we have found in the 4 Generations of mostly Red Hounds has been to the Bobcats!

[JTG]

John said:" Or even littermates if the are the kind of hounds you like." Now we are talking.
If you want to see what your hounds are really made of do a full brother and sister cross.

[Melanie Hampton]

CJC-

I haven't decided 100% yet on what I'm breeding Mabel to- I'm hunting a Brisco pup that is out of my outcross (my Jane dog)- if I like him- it will be an Aunt to Nephew cross.. I'm hoping to hunt with a couple of Brisco/Mabel pups to see which one I think will cross best- if it's one of them. My most favorite male out of the Brisco/Mabel cross, was sold to Venezuela and is a Jaguar dog down there. I'm trying to get some semen shipped back up on him..

The recessive color gene I get, is that they are a dilute- not a true black- they are grey where their black should be with dark liver noses.. It sure doesn't hurt their performance in the field, but its not correct- its actually more common in the Treeing Walkers (I think) then people believe.. I watch the United Kennel Clubs message board often and I see those "off" colored pups pop up quite often.

My best friend says you can put a dog out of my line in with 100 other Walker dogs and she can spot my line.. They are all very uniform..

[Dads dogboy]

Miss Melanie,

Go to www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com click on the Hound History Link and look at the Pics of some of the Old "Running" Walkers....the ones before there was a separate TW Registry....you will see that the "Grey" almost blue spot was quite common....it remained so up into the 1980s, yet is now quite rare except in Dad's line of Hounds. It is recessive and goes back to Ole Mark S. as that was the color of the two Spots that he had.

This Color never showed up in the Hounds till the Second set of Imported Irish/English Hounds were bred into the Walkers in the late 1880s.

Below is a 1960 Hunters Horn add showing Mark and his Father and Grandfather.
It is hard to see Marks Blue/Grey Spot but Stride S. and Dawson's Stride both had that Color.

[festus]

Alabama Cathunter,
First you need to determin where excactly the " cat sense " trait is coming from. I would look very close at the half mates littermates, parents littermates, and grandparents littermates. If the " cat sense " trait is a common trait in those dogs, and you can live with the unwanted traits that are also common in this line, you will be happy with a 1/2 brother sister cross.

Like CJC mentioned the 1/2 brother sister cross is going to double up on the common parent of the two half mates. Infact, the resulting pup's of a 1/2 brother sister cross have a better chance of being more like the common parent both physically and mentally than the two half mates do.
research, knowledge, honesty with yourself, and dedication to see things thru to the end, are a must if you are going to line breed/inbreed for a trait. If you are not willing to at the very least commit yourself to these area's, you are setting yourself up for an ultimate falure and will be very disapointed in the results you get.

Good luck, Josh

[slowandeasy]

when ya get to the point of making the above mentioned crosses. i think it is understood by all involved that you should be as close as fleas with all of the individuals in a minimum of 4 generations. and either be able to turn the litter loose 24\7 so they can start hunting anything that leaves tracks, or have some top hands to farm them out to that are just as ruthless in what they will tolerate hopefully as you are. i sure am jealous of some of you guys and gals, as i get excited for ya. and don't have a damn thing worth a s--- at my place! good luck and keep us posted!

[Alabama Cathunter]

Thanks for everyones response. This line of hounds I have hunted sinse the early 80s. They dont have any bad flaws. If I were going to change anything it might be give a little more mouth trailing the cold track. and I might give them a little bigger mouth. This is not my line of dogs. George Rogero is the breeder and I can truly say in the past years I have got the best pups from him. His health is failing and hes has not been his self for the last 4or5 years. This is the best of his breeding that he had when he was still on top or competative.

[U.R.E.]

I was once told by a very well respected dog trainer and breeder that "If the person doing the breeding cannot tell you what color a litter of pups will be, that there is not a snowball chance in hell he can tell you anything about what traits might be".

Keep in mind this person sold dogs worldwide. Pups sold for 3000.00. Trained dogs sold for 15000.00. (NOT HOUNDS).

What are your thought on this???

Great thread.

Don

[Dads dogboy]

U.R.E.(Mr. Don) wrote: "I was once told by a very well respected dog trainer and breeder that "If the person doing the breeding cannot tell you what color a litter of pups will be, that there is not a snowball chance in hell he can tell you anything about what traits might be".

Very True, this would equate into KNOWING not only the Sire and Damn but their Sibs and what COLORS were expressed in this Line of Dogs. We call this "Doing your Homework".

Now you may have what Miss Melanie has had happen and a Sneaky Ole Recessive Gene may appear, however if your Homework was good enough you would be Surprised not ASTOUNDED by the Recessive Color appearing.

When two Recessive Color Dogs/Hounds are bred (because we Breed for Performance not Color) then you can/will change the Color of your Strain. Dad has had this happen with his Hounds. The Red Color is a Phase of Black and was recessive/heterozygous but when two were Bred with this Red Color, some of their Pups were now Homozygous Red. With these Pups the Red now became Dominant rather than recessive. (Mendel expresses this in a Square)

The above is a poor attempt at Genetics 101 and I may not have used the correct terms but a quick Google search of Mendels Theories on Genetics will give directions on where to go for the correct terminology and methodology.

[newby]

When two Recessive Color Dogs/Hounds are bred (because we Breed for Performance not Color) then you can/will change the Color of your Strain. Dad has had this happen with his Hounds. The Red Color is a Phase of Black and was recessive/heterozygous but when two were Bred with this Red Color, some of their Pups were now Homozygous Red. With these Pups the Red now became Dominant rather than recessive. (Mendel expresses this in a Square)

I was once told by a very well respected dog trainer and breeder that "If the person doing the breeding cannot tell you what color a litter of pups will be, that there is not a snowball chance in hell he can tell you anything about what traits might be".

Keep in mind this person sold dogs worldwide. Pups sold for 3000.00. Trained dogs sold for 15000.00. (NOT HOUNDS).

What are your thought on this???

Great thread.

Don

I'd be o.k. if my dogs turned out red, how about you Don?

[newby]

[quote="Dads dogboy"]

Newby writes: “CJC, what about the family of hounds your family breeds? Are they very similar in conformation, color, voice, and hunting traits? If so, what traits did your dad lock in first?”

Newby, Dad’s Hounds are all similar in Conformation. Structure is the second most Important Trait behind BRAINS that Dad breeds for (if a Hound does not have a Running gear to get them there…all the Brains, Nose and Mouth will do them no Good). Colours just happen, as that is not ever something that influences a Mating to be made. Mouths are another Trait down the List to be considered important (Dad has been blessed that most of his Hounds have had Mouths that any Houndman would enjoy). The Hunting Traits….what we call Styles will vary from Hound to Hound, but all be of a Style that fits the Team!

As far as what Trait did Dad “Lock in first”…..Mr. Hinkle Schillings, the Monroe Bros. and Folks even predating them had already done this…they had LOCKED in this BRAIN Thing!

quote]

Mr. Clay, according to this, it sounds as though you really, truly don't worry about color in your hounds. Let me throw you a hypothetical question though, say you've been breeding red hounds with white points for years and suddenly in a litter of red and white puppies you get a black and tan. Say that pup progresses just as well as the rest of the litter, and has the running gear, the brains, the mouth that the rest of your red and whites have...would you breed back to him or would you breed to one of the red and whites for color continuity? Thank you, Darin

[Dads dogboy]

Darin, you wrote : “Mr. Clay, according to this, it sounds as though you really, truly don't worry about color in your hounds. Let me throw you a hypothetical question though, say you've been breeding red hounds with white points for years and suddenly in a litter of red and white puppies you get a black and tan. Say that pup progresses just as well as the rest of the litter, and has the running gear, the brains, the mouth that the rest of your red and whites have...would you breed back to him or would you breed to one of the red and whites for color continuity? Thank you, Darin”

Well Darin very seldom do ALL the Pups make a BREEDABLE Hound….they might, and probably will be, Decent to Solid Hounds. But it takes a little More to become a Stud or Brood Hound. If they become that Special Hound then Color makes no difference what so ever. If Dad had his preference all his Hounds would be White with Lemon or Grey Spots.

I edited this Post to add "When a Houndsman starts to let Color rather than Performance influence his Breeding decisions not only has his quality of Hounds headed down hill his Integrity has as well" This is a Hot off the Presses quote from Dad!

Here is a Picture of our latest Litter Corkey ( A Special Hound who is Red w/white ring neck and points going back 2 Generations on both sides) X China ( A Tricolor bitch who is from Virginia who is closely bred to Dad’s Hounds and is a darn nice Hound, while Solid not Special she has very few flaws).

Notice the three distinct Colors of the Pups…it will not matter which Color one would be who is selected as a Stud as long as the Performance level topped the threshold needed. (The 1st China Litter out of Corkey’s Dad, Red Cloud, are making nice Hounds in three States at 11 months of age….a long way from Cat or Fox Hounds but nicely Started Hounds)