Opinions

[al baldwin]

In my experience most dogs do not have to be taught to run coyote, most have at about two or so decided to run a coyote. Some were dogs that had been started very young on bobcat & kept with clean hounds, big majority of the cat hunters I have known seem to share this experience. If one hunts snow often there should be lots of opportunity to check dogs on coyote, hunting 99% bare ground can present a little tougher time checking young dogs on coyote & other trash. I certainly agree teaching pups to mind before taking them to the woods, makes trash problems a whole bunch easier. Spending time and having the location to raise pups from a young age around trash is also a big plus. I would like to hear from others what they have experienced with young dogs kept in good company , when they reached about two to three years old. I never turned down the opportunity to check dogs on coyote when the location was desirable, but that opportunity did not happen often, unless I was coyote trapping as I cat hunted on some ranch. Understand for the last years I hunted all my dogs were freecast to road & hunt. Not interested in arguing with anyone. Al

[1bludawg]

I agree with JC's way of thinking.I like a pup that wants to run something! I've had pups start running trash at 5,6 and 7 mos. old.If they'll tree they usually make something .I like them to be independent and not care so much about what another dog is doing .If they tree cats they're a keeper,if not they're gone.With today's equipment most dogs are pretty easy to break and i want them broke in any company.I've had a couple of hyper dogs(different breeds)that i never could trust but they treed cats .jmo

[South Texan]

Al, most of my dogs by the time they reach 2 should be teaching the pups. Should be tattling on the pups when they smell something wrong. I have two pups in the pen right now that I started in February of this year. They were 4 months old when I started them (youngest I've ever started. But... By the time they reach 2 they have lots of miles on them with a little positive game under their belt.

I just road hunt. Pups on the ground at all times with the older dogs. We have lots of off game here and I hunt a lot in daylight hours this time of year, so I get to see a lot of off game cross the road in front of my pups as I'm road hunting. I have a big advantage getting to observe the pups as they cross these trails and making corrections if necessary be it verbal, tone, or light shock. But have seen some of the real gamey pups "think"after they have caught 15 or 20 cats that they are really good at this and don't need any help and get a lot more independent on trails. This is the time I might have to get a little harder on the pup than I've ever been. Some pups at this stage might quit listing to my verbal command when he starts something wrong. So he is reminded that he has a shock collar on and might get hit with a number 2 shock level. 99% of the time this is all it takes. His hearing gets a lot better and he remembers that he better come when called. After this pup is hunted for 6 to 8 months and been on plenty of positive game I'll quit calling him off bad game. He knows by this time what I'm after and I'm not going to be there his whole life to call him off, so he's gotta learn to leave off game alone without my verbal command. So I'll start giving a light shock (1 or 2) on off game without saying anything. They'll soon learn to check it and go on if it isn't positive game. But....been my experience starting a pup this way by the time they're 2 they are well on their way to being a cat dog if they have the breeding behind them.
Robbie


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[al baldwin]

Thanks Robbie, that is close to what I have experienced. Sure you have a better cat population than I ever experienced. It has been my experience that as a young hound became independent most would start a coyote. Seem to be a pattern, this would happen when a red hot coyote had gone up the road ahead of the dogs, the young dog would nose the track without barking for a ways , then the excitement would take over. A majority
of the time the older dogs would tell on them & I would correct and continue hunting. I found not all dogs would alert me, one morning after I had trouble with a young hound getting two old dogs sucked in a coyote race a few days before, and I had used a heavy dose of e-collar to all three. A big coyote came right in front of the dogs and I has we pulled a steep grade on a four wheel trail. The pusher dog never broke stride, went up that trail in his usual hard hustle style. The walker female and the young hound dove behind the wheeler & refused to hunt for the next half mile or so. A neat experience I will always remember. It was my fault that coyote race happened with those two old dogs, both had tried to warn me & I gave way to much trust to that young hound, thinking the old dogs had missed a track & encouraged them to join in. However, believe being able to read a coyote race & correcting made more trash proof dogs out of those two older dogs. Al

[dwalton]

You young guys read al's post, a great bit of knowledge here that takes years to learn. IT WAS MY FAULT THAT COYOTE RACE HAPPEN WITH THOSE TWO OLD DOGS, BOTH HAD TRIED TO WARN ME AND I GAVE WAY TO MUCH TRUST TO THAT YOUNG HOUND, THINKING THE OLD DOGS HAD MISSED A TRACK AND ENCOURAGED THEM TO JOIN IN. When you are able to read your dogs the minute they smell a track and know what it is or is not correcting with a simple no or tone your trash troubles will cease to happen. I was lucky enough to hunt with a top hunter in my early years that could take young dogs and make bobcat dogs out of them without the help of the old broke dog. Many times I have seen him roll down the window and tell young dogs no when they just start to take a track. Asking whats are they doing wrong he simply said that't not a cat. One day with him we were walk hunting my dogs started to work a track I began to hiss them to help them to get them to take it. He casually remarked if you hiss them dogs enough you will get them to run that coyote, you never have to hiss a dog to take the game that they are use to running. I realized at that point that I had been teaching my dogs to trash by not being able to read and correct them before they ran a off track. Everything we do with our dogs we are teaching them something. I think we are not aware of it most of the time. Dewey

[twist]

Dogs are dogs there are none perfect all are capable of running trash at some point. Yes they can be taught not to but none are ever 100 percent broke no matter how much one tells himself that! THIS IS NOT AN OPINION ITS A FACT! Andy

[dwalton]

Twist; I agree with you but take it one step farther. Dogs are just dogs, they are only as good as their handler, if the handler is trashy and can not read the dogs one can not expect the dogs to do any better. Dewey

[mark]

Could cat population have anything to do with how trashy a dog could be or not be?

[South Texan]

Mark, just my opinion but in a way yes I think it might get a trash race started. You would sure want to have a good enough cat population to get to show your young dogs a cat ever now and then. Enough to where young dogs know what they are suppose to run.

I have seen times when hunting young hyper dogs when the cats just wasn't moving. These young dogs are about like a bunch of young teenage boys. They can just control their self for so long then look out! After trotting for 5or 6 hours and not starting a cat they would finally have to try and find'em something to run. These are the dogs I was speaking about earlier. Dogs that had just enough cats under them to where "they" thought they were good and didn't need any help. So....I would have to say yes. Low cat population or even no cat movement sure might get a young dog to start a piece of trash. One other thing these young dogs have to learn is patience. Patience enough to hang in there with the old dogs to the right game is smelt.


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[1bludawg]

Those are some great points.The hyper dogs i mentioned just couldn't go to long without running a cat.They just had to run something! I had to be on my toes if i couldn't find a bobcat.I didn't like it and they didn't get away with much but they couldn't help themselves.

[dwalton]

Yes I think cat populations or being able to get the dogs on enough cats to know that is what they are suppose to do. But I think it still goes back to the hunter,we are giving the dogs to much room for mistakes based on poor training or breeding. Dogs to hyper are breeding problems, for it takes a clam dog that thinks to be a bobcat dog not a hard charging renegade. Not that you can't teach any dog to catch some bobcats but is it really wroth the time. For me I am 100% responsible for what that dog is doing. If he does something or is something that is not working out the way I think it should be it is breeding or my inability to communicate to him or her as to what I want or it is my inability to read what the dog or dogs are telling me. A dog is a dog is so true it is just my responsibility to get the best out of them. I would like to believe that I am the brains of the team making the important choices that support us in treeing bobcats. Dewey

[twist]

I have a coming five yr old female best catdog I have ever walked behind on bobcat. Have raised her as a puppy super smart easy handling but every yr during cat season she has never let me down she gets side tracked on a sticker pig. I have gotten after her as good as one can at the time. Thought this yr I broke the ice but last week of season she proved me wrong. Is this human error or a dog being a dog? Hunted her whole life with good clean dogs but in her younger yrs she would ever so often take a fresh yote track also but under the right conditions would probably still take one. So as much as we all like to think our dogs are dogs and we are all humans so there will be mistakes. So a smart dog and a smart human do have a lot better catch rates that's for sure but we all fail at some point. Andy

[mondomuttruner]

Wow, I think we have the start of a good training book. All good comments guys..

[mark]

What i think a good population is most important for in a young dog is if it does trash on you and you correct it, it doesnt take 2-4 days or a week to get it on good game again. Many times with a good population the pup is on a good race within an hour. I dont take much credit for training a dog past a good handle and knowing what the tone means. When a pup goes to the woods it should want to run any track it smells. Its up to me and the old dogs (if any are present) to show Jr what we are after. But hey, its just an opinion

[rockytrails]

Wow, I think we have the start of a good training book. All good comments guys..

Very True.I like how Dewey stated, before they reach Independent age. Never heard it put that way.