A Lost Sport on the Comeback

[Ike]

Thanks for the input and comments Al, and it sounds like you guys have a really good thing going for you. There isn't anything wrong with management or removing predators to help struggling deer or sheep populations if a person doesn't wipe those lions out in the process. Lion hunting and running hounds is a great sport, and a guy just doesn't want to shoot himself out of the game is all I'm saying.

I recently was in the middle of a conversation between myself and three old lion hunters. Between the four of us there was over a hundred and twenty years of experience talking. One of the guys told us he had just spent two days in the Book Cliffs and one over on the Wasatch and had only cut one old lion track in their travels. Another old hounddogger claimed he'd cut from Yellowstone to Rock Creek on six day old snow and not cut a single lion. Then all three of those guys agreed that ten or fifteen years ago they'd cut a dozen fresh or old tracks in the same amount of time on the same roads.

My father use to always tell me there was a difference in scratching your azz and tearing it off, and just don't tear it off..............

ike

[mnb&t]

Bout time someone else posts on here not just to argue or call people names but to actually talk about the topic, thanks Alvallejo.
Pat

im sorry for accidently getting anything started off topic. i was offended by a comment about houndsmen in general and will keep quite in the future.

good thread otherwise guys. matt.

[old bess]

Rookie The only problem I have is that you reffered to the entire state of Ne as being dumbass's. Other than that we are fine. I think I will follow Mnb&t on this one and be quite so that these fine people can get on with their thread. I will say this in future you should watch how you word stuff. It might save on some misunderstandings.

[pat_kemp]

Thanks guys, All Ike was trying to do is post something on here to talk about, If you dont like it then dont post if ya want to talk about it then talk about it, Theres no need for all that other stuff. Thats how i see it neways.
Pat

[Ike]

Thanks Pat, and if people would just address the issue rather than tearing someone else down we'd all get along alot better.......

I have most likely painted a bleak picture of the lion population where I hunt and so I should probably update this thing a little. Through my winter travels, and talking to a couple other friends, it appears the lion population and their numbers have most likely turned the corner and things are looking up. To date, I have not killed a single lion but have found and chased plenty of tracks over the winter.

One buddy and I got to talking about the lion situation here in the Basin and so I started keeping track of the days afield, the tracks found and so forth. And looking back on those numbers, I'd say I don't have much to piss and moan about as far as lions go. Since November, I've been out twenty-seven days and cut as many tracks, and looking back on the hole deal I have to rethink my position on the lion population.

I do not support any more limited entry hunting than we presently have, and I will lobby to see the units in my area stay as they are. Being a person with conservative values, and one that believes very strongly in competition, I still feel that the harvest of these big cats should stay in the hands of the men and women that feed and train those hounds. A Harvest Objective system supports that ideology and so that is the system I will push for. I very strongly oppose a limited entry system where some lucky person who doesn't even feed a hounds draws a tag and prevents the people in the sport from sharing in that harvest. And personally, I don't understand why a state that votes nearly eighty percent conservative, and one that believes in competition, would either........I BELIEVE PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN LUCK, BY HARD WORK AND DEDICATION!

My hunting days efforts show that by reducing the harvest numbers only by even a little the lion population will continue to come back. This hunting method also allows the biologists to increase or decrease the take numbers on any given unit to achieve their goals in managing other species on the unit...........

All I can say is it's great to tree a big ol' tom lion as a houndsmen, walk into that tree with a gun and a video camera and then choose to walk away rather than have the State of Utah make that decision for me.......we all would most likely like to have a large tom track to run every time we go to the field, but with the number of dog boxes in the field these days that wouldn't happen if DWR closed the take season........and managers aren't gonna do that! My suggestions to all the hounddoggers is learn to walk away from any marginal situations and only kill (or let others kill) something that you're proud of.

Maybe I should explain why I don't support limited entry for lions and/or bears. Years back, I ran into one of the local hounddoggers one day around the bear application period. I asked him if he got in for bear and he replied,"I got thirty people in the draw for the Book Cliffs, how many people do you have put'en in?" Well, I hope that little story helps explain my reason cause half of those people probably couldn't even make it to a bear tree, cause they probably don't even know what they're getting themselves into.....

I hope you all have had a great year as well!

Ike

[Big Mike]

Ik ussually just a reader here but this topic I can relate to since it has affected my hunting areas. In New Mexico around our southern sheep areas there has definitely been a big impact on the lion populations. Before the sheep were re-introduced to the San Andreas range they(G&F) snared 20 lions (roughly) be fore the sheep were re-introduced. Its unfortunate but this had to be done if they wanted the sheep to survive. There is a lack of alternative prey for lion(deer) in that area and the previous sheep populations took huge hits from the lions. This definitely affected the lion hunting in the neighboring mountains. G&F has also been snaring lions in the Ladron mountains which has affected the lion populations in the neighboring mountains as well. This one kinda rubs me a little wrong because its marginal sheep habitat at best and the sheep arnt doing well there anyways and they have been snaring lions there for at least the last 6 years and the sheep arnt doing any better. I don't like seeing an iradication of one species in favor of another but lions don't have many friends in this state. I can understand it in our critical sheep areas for the sheep to get a sustained breeding pop.
But anyways Sheep have the politicla support and the lon tails dont!

[Lil Joes BigGame hounds]

Good post but the same can be said for our darling ELK . We cant hunt bear with dogs because they took our spring season away, and now its to close to the rut. So every money hungry rancher will not let you hunt bears. Even though it is in august and some places do not hunt the archery season. And then in December everyone is milking every tag for all its worth and you cant hunt lions when we get the best snow.

But when all the smoke clears there we sit with all our gear, pick ups, DOGS , skidoos, 4-wheelers, horses, and schnees and snow shoes. Ready to roll and get our fix of treeing biggame!!!

[justjared]

hey ike where do you call home utah california ?? just curious im in utah and if you are would like to maybe see if we can get a hunt goin

[BigGameHunter]

Here is my take Ike. Since they opened the Harvest Objective system here several years ago, I have seen our lion population go from very healthy to very poor with a lot of females getting killed. They reintroduced the limited entry draw on a few units and now I am seeing the populations recovering however; one one of the units they still have it open to Harvest Objective and that unit is still very poor compared to what it once was. I think that HO puts pressure on guys out there hunting to take the first cat they tree if they are fearing that the unit is going to close soon. A limited entry system allows a person time to make a more selective choice as to what they take. I do agree with your point that it should be the guys feeding the potlickers that are taking the lions but I think you have the same problem with both the LE and the HO systems.

IF the F&G had the numbers down to an acceptable level then I would not be opposed to it but down here, I don't think they are at that level. Pretty poor hunting on that unit still in the HO when we used to go out there and at least cut a track every time out.....

[Ike]

Well, thanks for your input BGH and I don't disagree with you about the Harvest Objective was tough on the lion population in the beginning, a time when the state had too many lions on the quota. However, I disagree that Harvest objective is the problem cause it's the hunters and guides who are the problem. I learned years ago not to start a female lion track for most hunters unless I was willing to have that hunter kill it. Too many times, when a flat lander or city dude makes his first trip to the tree he doesn't want to go through that again. Hounddoggers just need to arrive at a decision that shooting females only shoot them out of a sport, and that a good hound isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell without a lion population.

I was raised in Oklahoma and remember the days when the Oklahoma Fish and Game sold their first doe tags in the early seventies. All of the bowhunters in my area put in for doe tags and got together after the draw to have a doe tag burning party. Many of those guys had seen the whitetail population slowly recover and just wasn't willing to have others shoot them out of a sport. And that is where we as dog owners need to get, and that's away from taking females unless there is a need to do so--and I'm not talking about a non-resident hunter that wants something, anything to take home with him on the last day either.

I've had friends tell me they ran down a lion for a friend to kill because that friend had earned it, so I asked what did that friend do? "Well, he's gone along several times and bought some gas!" As you know, people like you and I have bought one hell of a lot more than gas yet we continue to kill off the lions for people who are really only vistiors to our sport. Bottom line is most of us are packing a tag and can kill whenever we want to, or at least I know I can. I've walked away from several top endmonster tom lions in the past couple years, had a tag in my pocket and no good reason not to kill other than a lack of reason to.........

More of us need to develop that attitude and we won't need the STATE of UTAH to decide who gets to kill and who doesn't. If you believe limited entry is best in your area that is OK with me BGH, but please limit that idea to your area and don't impose it on my areas. But I've already said my piece and I'll just leave it at that.....

Good luck and keep'em treed,
ike