New GPS tracking system on the market

[Marshall]

the longest range that i have got out of my garmin is 900 yds and that really dont cut it! i have lost signal as close as 260 yds with the dogs uphill from me and not over the top and on the other side but just straight uphill. in all honesty i think if you are going to pay the money that a guy does for a garmin it better give you live sattelite feeds every second. so my overall opinion is that if your dogs get away from you and you are just running a garmin then you are screwed and are just gonna have to get lucky finding your dogs, so is there really any point on having a garmin? I mean i can hear what the dogs are doing and where they are going even after i lose signal with my garmin so to me they arent worth a crap. there are two of us around here running garmins and the other guy has the same problem so i wouldnt chime in if i thought i just had a dud. on the other hand we do run around in the mountians and not in desert, but once again for the money you pay i think you should get a hell of alot better range then 900 yds topps!

marshall

[Steve White]

BC- All radio communications is carried out, and has to follow the rules of line of sight. There is only one exception to this. Satellite transmissions. There are no dog tracking systems that use this yet. Very few people can afford a sat phone. Hate to think of the cost with tracking a pack of dogs.

So in theory you could track your dogs a very long ways with anything if you get high enough. So really the distance with any tracking system is about the same. That is when they are compared apples to apples. Antenna size, height, transmitter power, receive capability, etc. So with the distance being the same, it's the other advantages the Garmin offers that make it far superior to other tracking systems.

[Buddyw]

the longest range that i have got out of my garmin is 900 yds and that really dont cut it! i have lost signal as close as 260 yds with the dogs uphill from me and not over the top and on the other side but just straight uphill. in all honesty i think if you are going to pay the money that a guy does for a garmin it better give you live sattelite feeds every second. so my overall opinion is that if your dogs get away from you and you are just running a garmin then you are screwed and are just gonna have to get lucky finding your dogs, so is there really any point on having a garmin? I mean i can hear what the dogs are doing and where they are going even after i lose signal with my garmin so to me they arent worth a crap. there are two of us around here running garmins and the other guy has the same problem so i wouldnt chime in if i thought i just had a dud. on the other hand we do run around in the mountians and not in desert, but once again for the money you pay i think you should get a hell of alot better range then 900 yds topps!

marshall

I hunt Oregon, and I consistanly get 2-3 miles with the mag mount antenna, and LR antenna.

If your hunting with a Garmin and only use the Standard antenna then that's about what you should expect... Put a stubby antenna on a Standard Tracking system and you won't be much better off. Generally speaking With radios it's mostly about the Antenna.

You can normally compensate for a Poor Radio with a Good antenna,
But you can't you compensate a poor antenna with a Good Radio.

[Steve White]

Well said Buddy.

Here in WI I get on average about a mile out of the stubby stock antenna. Which is about the same as what my maxima unit did. Only I know exactly what the dogs are doing and where. In tests the Garmin range was equal too most of the time, and grater at other times than the maxima. So out went the maxima. This was with the stock stubby antenna. Bigger antenna, more hieght, = more range. Not a hard concept. I can name at least a dozzen other hunters in WI that use nothing other than the Garmin anymore. Myself included.

Not sure about the whole price issue. Comparing the price on tracking units out there. Garmin is about the cheapest route you can go. Only a couple of setups come close in price. Nobody demands any live satellite feeds from that cheap beep beep crap.

[Marshall]

yes sir i agree with you that what i was saying was a far far away concept with satellite feeds. Now on the other hand i dont know what tracking equiptment costs on average and i really dont care, what i was getting at is that im not a rich man like im sure alot of the people on here arent and i cant afford two tracking systems. I have run my dogs with telemetry systems and gps and i have to say that i disagree with you on where the gps is far superior than the beep beep crap as you put it. I have not got half the range out of my gps that i have out of beep beep crap, maybe i need to go out and invest in one of the antenas that you guys spoke of but again i dont have the money. So what im saying is if i spend 500 dollars and then have to buy a bunch more crap for it to get it where it has the same range as the telemetry then whats the point? why not just go with the beep beep crap, and if more people would get off their butts and walk and maybe get out of the truck and go with the dogs well then they would know what the dogs are doing. I think its better when you can try and tell me what your toppo map says the canyon does by your gps and i have ben there and know that its not entirely true because ive ben there. So you can keep the gps and i will go telemetry just incase the dogs get out of hearing distance. Getting out of truck+ walking = knowing what dogs are doing. good luck

[walkersrule]

myself, i am going to stick with the old trusty! the more you hunt the dog, the more you know it. i dont need to know when the dog makes a turn or what the race looks like on a map. i have heard lots of good and bad about the garmins. im just not going to get one because i have what i have and it works for me. although, it would be nice to have powers to wipe every obstacle out of your view to be able to watch the race with your own two eyes.....lol it would be like watching a nascar race!

jimmy

[Steve White]

When you hunt near a roads. The GPS will at some point save your dogs life!

In all reality. If we had the ability to keep up, and or get ahead of the dogs while on foot. There would be no need for any type of telemetry!! Even coon dogs will get out ahead of you once in awhile. Good luck keeping up with a bear race on foot. I wear out a pair of boots every year trying to do just that.

I prefer to be ahead of the pack not a step behind. Hunting over 100 days a year with my pack that is a hard thing to do! I might need some slower track straddlers.

[doghunter]

My question is if you hook up a computer to the tinyloc and mount it in your truck will it report in real time on topo or Goggle map. if so do you have to be online or can you just hook it up to your computer with a loaded map and watch the dog move like garmin. I would welcome this set up. It would give a bigger screen and from what i have been reading the range is what we are all looking for.


I know the previous post list you can come back from a hunt and put it on a map to see where the dog went during the hunt. I just want to know if the tinyloc is hooked to the computer while hunting will it show real time.

My astro range is still horrible last week all i could track is 8 tenths of a mile. I could actually hear my dogs and did not have siginal on 4 collars.

something has to improve with the astro. if anyone know of another system that we could go to please let me know.

[BuckNAze]

Still not sure where you can look on a "topographical map" where you dogs location is in real time. If I knew it was like the Astro in that sense that you could actually see where you dogs are in real time I would buy it. I like how they integrated both telemetry and GPS but if someone could point out where you can see them in real time GPS then I think Ill buy it. I mean if the only GPS feature it has is an arrow that points you in the right direction thats cool too but Id like to see where there actually at, like closes road, drainage, etc.

[doghunter]

i just looked at the Tiny loc site and they claim

"Connect your R2 Tracer (either using the internal antenna or the accessory car antenna) to your laptop and see exactly where your dog is in real time on a topographic map (check available map zones). Hunters who would like to use a topographic map during the hunt can also connect the R2 Tracer to a handheld laptop."

I just wish I knew if the tracking range is real or like garmin just a dream. Maybe steve white can chime in he seems to know alot about all these trackers.

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

We are always looking for a better way to keep up with Dads Hounds.

Keeping Dad close enough to hear a Race is as important as any other consideration!

The Garmin has proven to be the Best option out there so far! Perfect NO!

We have talked to Fl. Deer Hunters who have had hell with theirs, either range problems or collar interference issues.

We are usually the only ones out at night so collar interference is a non issue for us. Range...we use the cheap looking longe range antennae extended 2/3 of the way out laying on the Dashboard of the truck. This gives us more range than the roof mount (whose co-ax we kept breaking with the doors or windows closing on it).. we consistantly get 4 to 6 miles of range and with some collars as much as 10 miles with an intermitant signal. However some collars get to where they only give several hundred yards of range...then back to Garmin they go. This is our biggest gripe, we always have something in transit.

Now this country is flat, I mean flat a hill is 33' tall so line of sight is not a big issue, although in mature tall timber signal can get weak. When the Hounds are in water there is no signal.

We have very little problem with the Tree switch feature, it will show up if the Hounds are crossing down trees in a Cypress Pond or going up a ditch bank.

For now the Garmin is the best GPS option for us. The Tiny Loc has been used by some friends in the UK. They did not like it at all and went to the Garmin. I hear that in SW and SE France that the Boar and Hare Hunters are using the Tiny Loc and like it.

We hear that the new Marshall System will address the weaknesses of the Garmin and may be the answer to everyones problems...lets hope so. Folks may want to get by with their old beep beeps till later this year when the Marshall hits the market!

So far no new information out of Tri-tronics and their alleged work with Magellan on a system, heard that there were some Lisc, and patent issues. Don't know!

For now my advise to any one interested in a System would be to dance with what brung ya...and waite to see if the Marshall is better than the Garmin. Or there are some Garmins hitting the market from folks not happy for half the price!

CJC

[BuckNAze]

Thats what most of our problems are, we live in very mountainous terrain where the mountains get up to 6000ft high, deep drainages, lots of timber, rock cliffs. Its hard for those garmins to get a good signal around here. I think I might as well hold off for the Marshall, as long as it isnt a piecer too. Thanks for the info!

[Ike]

If a guy only gets a mile or two out of the Garmin collars I'm probably gonna send mine back before they are used. Hell sakes, I can hear my hounds for a mile or two and don't need a collar nor do I need to know what they are doing. If I can't depend on that collar battery lasting until I retrieve that hound, and if I can't get a signal six to ten miles away from a high point I am better off staying with my Quick Track system. Hell sakes, my Tracker will pick up a signal further away than the Quick Track. I only wish I'd read through these posts before I ordered a Garmin...........

I had hounds out on a couple lions this winter and it would have been nice to have had those hounds on a TRUE GPS collar system that would tell me which pocket or side canyon they were in. In one case they were six to eight miles line of sight and the other eight or more--we ran the snow sleds into them and they showed over eleven miles, and wre two and three days getting to them. If a collar is dead in twelve to thirty-six hours it ain't worth a damn for nothing in my country.

ike

[Steve White]

I have chimed in on this. I try hard to help everyone understand how all these things work. It all starts very simply. LINE OF SIGHT!!!! There is nothing anyone can do to change this. It is a very basic law of physics. So with all things being equal. Range will be the same. Where the changes start coming in is with antenna's!! Longer antenna's increase your line of sight. Just like if you climb a ladder you can see farther. So the range you get with a big yagi antenna is going to be different than that of a 5" antenna.

Buddy has also said it.

Put a stubby antenna on a Standard Tracking system and you won't be much better off. Generally speaking With radios it's mostly about the Antenna.

You can normally compensate for a Poor Radio with a Good antenna,
But you can't you compensate a poor antenna with a Good Radio.

Most understand that a truck mounted radio is going to have more range than a handheld. For the most part it is the antenna.

This is also why on the maxim units it is now standard equipment for an external antenna. So that you can increase the line of sight thus range. They have now gone a step further and put a signal booster on them. WHich is nothing but a hearing aid for a weak signal within the line of sight. It does not extend the line of sight.

Let me explain that. Line of sight is a 2 way street. You have one for both the transmitter and receiver. Line of sight is 2x the square root of the height. So lets say you have a 2 mile circle from the collar as your line of sight. The circle of line of sight from your antenna is 5 miles. The max range at where these 2 circles meet is 7 miles. This is where the confusion over power starts. Think of power as volume control. The more you turn the volume the better you can hear it at a distance. Yet the max distance that the volume can be heard is still only that of the line of sight. Power can not increase the line of sight. Only how well it is heard at the edges of the max circle size.

Now with the understanding of line of sight. There is a few other things that can play a part in range besides an antenna. Both the frequency being used and the type of frequency. Some work better than others. Take the beep beep stuff. They use CW. In some areas 151 collars work better than 219 collars. From what I have found the 151 gets a better range around me. I have also heard this about some of the western states. I have not hunted there so do not know. Could be a slight change 216 vs 219, or 151 vs 155. Most have seen this. Now there is another difference that we all have seen. Well most anyway. That is the difference between digital and analog signals. Back before all these folks needed to text, IM, send pics, and surf the web with cell phones. They were analog. We had longer ranges, and better service. When the feds mandated everything go digital are signal got worse. So they had to put up more towers so you could be within line of sight of the tower. This is because the digital signal does not carry as well as the analog. To compensate for this we put antenna's on the cars, and boosters. TO get the weaker signal heard. That is also why the bag phones worked better. Bigger antenna, and more power.

The Garmin uses a digital signal. So it does reduce the range slightly because of it. Yet we need that digital signal. So that the information the collar is gathering can be transmitted. You can test this very easily just use a handheld radio on low power in the same channel. You will find the range to be slightly higher.

So is someone going to be able to find the holy grail of tracking systems. NO!! not in the current form. The only way it can be done is completely via satellite. Cost of this will keep it from happening for a long time. How many of you have a sat phone?

Is there things that can be approved upon. Yep, battery life. You can bet they are working on that. Yet in doing so it may take a larger battery to have the longer life. The power used by the Garmin is far higher than the normal beep beep collars. Garmin is 2 watts while beep beep stuff is somewhere around 1/10th of a watt. Again you can test this battery life thing, or may already know. Talking on a handheld radio with 1w vs 5w. Battery life will be longer with 1w. Kinda also why are cell phones batteries are rated with standby time/talk time. A larger battery is going to weigh a bit more. Since the collars my dogs wore at one time were 1lb. They could give the collars another 8oz's of battery, and I would not complain. Some might though and did right away with a 8oz collar.

One last thing to think of. The Garmin was designed for bird dogs. Garmin had no idea it was going to be the hound guys that were going to use them. This has left them scratching their heads a bit. Things will change for sure. Others may try to come out with units. Still Garmin will be ahead of the game. It will be tough for others with licenses, patents, etc to bring things out. As they do there is going to be interference problems. Unless someone spends some real big dollars for private channels with the FCC. That is why Tinyloc also uses the MURS band. Since Garmin owns some of their own satellites. I doubt they will lease rights to a competitor.

Things will change. Yet for now. Garmin has not only given us a better tracking system. They have also managed to educate a whole bunch of people on the use of radio communications. So they have that going for them, which is nice

Hope I did not confuse anyone too bad, now that my fingers are sore

[Mr.pacojack]

Steve it is too bad Garmin is not as concerned with their system as you are. They Just don't give a shit. I have had one unit into them 6 times and have always asked what was wrong with the unit and even tried to talk with a tech but they wont talk and don't want to know our problems with the system.
You are wrong about one thing, someone will come out with a better system and leave gamin in the dust, and they will spend alot of money but it will be worth it because they will have a system that works and works properly.
If garmin was concerned about fixing their problems they would ask questions and want feedback, but THEY DONT.