BigGameHoundsmen.com

I know nothing about lion hunting so Im just going to give food for thought. A couple of guys mention lions coming in to town or by town (whatever the case). We used to have a good number of bear in the national forest, now there seems to be more bear sighted around towns and private land. My take on this change is the number of hound hunters has gone way up and between training season and kill season, every time a bear looks back hes got hounds on his(or hers) tail. well naturally the bear migrate to an area they dont get chased every day. Maybe the lions are doing the same? Just food for thought!

Yard Dog wrote:

houndnem wrote: I do want to offer some counter points to the anit female killer adgenda. they're not my feelings, rather just thoughts to think about. every year I hear this same debate about the harvest and the females killed etc. every year. which means there were obviously still a bunch of lions to kill right??? you can't overharvest an area that doesn't have lions????

[quote=" yard dog"]
" Glad to hear these are not "your fellings" because they make absolutely no sense. How does complaints about killing females and declining lion populations in our state mean we "obviously still have a bunch of lion to kill"?
"you can't overharvest an area that does not have lions"...wow...I thought the point was many areas of the state are being overharvested, hence the lack of lions. And killing females only compounds this problem."

I'm just saying that for the last 12 years one of our units down here has got overharvested by 5 or more one time it was 9. every year! alot of females and subs too. it's usually the same hand full of outfitters that do it and everybody freaks out about it.(myself included) but the opening weekend next year if it snows it will over harvest again. I was just putting the question out there that in theory is this unit sustaining the overkill of females and subs and remaining at a stable level?

"Who are these lion haters?" the answer, everybody who doesn't have hounds and even some that do. I rarely set in a coffee shop, or pull through a gas station hardware store etc that I don't hear somebody say " your not killing enough of them". or "kill em all". the general public has no idea how poor our lion population really is. I almost had to punch a deer hunter in the nose last summer on a job site when we got into a pretty heated discussion about lion population. he says he sees lions in herds where he deer hunts and us overprotective houndsmen won't do anything to help him so he shoots em on the hoof every time he sees them. that kind of mentality mixed with our dwr's total lack of knowlege on lion management is why they give out so many tags in the first place.
There was a speach given last night at the houndsman banquit that brought a tear to my eye. he was talking about the old houndsmen in the room and how they had passed these lions down to us and how it is our responsability to pass it on to the next generation. as long as we have guys like the guy that gave that speach in the fight for us we have a chance! I'm not sticking up for the slaughtering of small females and subs, I was just offering counter point from people who don't think the same as us. All of us that even want a foot to stand on in this debate had better be attending the rac meetings. I'll see ya there, Jared.

Where did Dave go? He mentioned a couple of days ago that he would like to talk to Timothy and explain some things to him. Since that time he was called out again. Dave you obviously look at this web sight. Why don’t you answer some questions for all of us. Do you hunt strictly for money? Do you look at populations before deciding to take a female? Do you take females after days of looking for tracks for a client and in desperation kill females? Do you take the females so you can get this hunt done and move to the next? Are you seeing other tracks were you are taking these females? What are your plans for next season if you kill the female this year that took several days to find? If you have the answers for your actions for Timothy would you please share them with all of us.

Im pleased to see even in a heated debate, there is guys settling down and starting to make sense and looking for resolutions. I dont think its rocket science to figure out, the ranchers has more pull and influnce in area's then anyone. As in my case when i was in colorado, ten years ago.I went in dec, as most guys wait until Jan 1 for a new year, and liscense. I think there was 18 tags left for the area. I treed a female, a female and two cubs, and a mature tom which i took. The warden kept an eye on me, and we met several days, as i was hunting near his residence also. A few conversations, went as this, We know we wont fill them tags, nor the lions to support it. The Ranchers around here, have money and pull and they want all of them dead period. I really wouldnt doubt the warden, turned the next hunter on to the females, to make himself and management of the area look good to the ranchers. I myself rebeled, and would have went home empty then kill a female lion. Enjoyed the beautiful country, my dogs and being alone was enough for me

I dont know how things work out there, but maybe a few suggestions would be to help with depervation lions, or be certified or whatever to be on a list of respectable hunters to be called in for stock kills and the cat, will be killed regardless, along with human encounters, population etc. I do know with tight budgets, they must even be watching time spent and where, for the government hunters. If you could help assist in problem cases, wouldnt that also be saving tax dollars to the state? As in my limited experience, in CO. It wasnt what made sense, it was about who had the money and influence, that controlled the population. You can help control it by leaving females alone, working with the governments etc, its a compound problem, leaving the females alone is the best start i know of, good luck

timothy wrote:

M Evertsen wrote:Very well said. Letting all the females go, and only killing mature toms is only going to add fuel to the fire of the people who hate lions already. Lions do need to be killed, and a wide range of ages and of both sexes need to be accounted for to keep our sport of hounding alive and keep the Gov't hunters as well as the lion haters off our backs. We want all these lions to run, but no one thinks of who writes the checks to the game and fish, and who they will listen to more. Keep the lions at a number where we can still enjoy them with our dogs, and low enough to keep the fish and game from saying we aren't being productive enough, and other means must be impemented to take care of the problem, such as poisoning, snaring, trapping, airplane shooting, and other ways to kill lions that we as houndsmen would not enjoy.

That sounds good in theory, If the lion population was currently at a healthy level then that would be feasible. However except in a few areas the lion populations are terrible and the killing of even on female is not sustainable. If you say you are a houndsmen I do not see how you can justify killing lions to the point that they are today. We need to unite under one cause and quit making excuses for the ones who choose to throw it all away. If we can show up to the RAC meetings in mass with one point of view we can change it for the better. Only we can do it though, no one else will do it for us.

I do not live in Utah, and therefore I cannot say how the population is over there.
I do know, however, that I had the same thought as you. I could not find a lion track, looked into the harvest reports, and my conclusion was that there were too many female lions being killed. As time progressed, I learned to hunt lions, where to look for sign, and got away from the places most people hunt. I started seeing a lot of lion sign, and even caught a few.

One thing I do know of some people in Utah, is that there are some who have 30+ catches a year, and some very few. I can only judge by what I know, and for the areas I hunt, and the people I know, 15 catches a year is a good year for someone with a full time job. I am not sure how many people in Utah expect to catch in a year, so I have no opinion on that. I caught 4 (in 3 catches) this last year, and that was my best year yet. I thought that was quite good. I still should have had about 2 more catches, but thats behind me now, and nothing I can do about it.

I still check on the harvest reports, and try to promote being responsible in what we as houndsmen kill.

I too get a lecture at about every gas station. People keep saying, we are not killing enough lions, etc. I always ask how many they have killed, and its usually 0. I say how many I have killed, and it at least shuts them up temporarily.

I have also talked to people who have hunted lions around ranches, and if there is ever word that they let a female go, or killed a booner tom, they will not be let back on or near that property. Its just that simple. If there is anything that might jeopardize a rancher's way of making a living, it has to go, regardless of whether or not it has done damage at that point.

M Evertsen, 15 catches a year is an unrealistic number for our part of the state. If a guy caught 5 he would be doing damn good. And I'm not talking about catching one lion and jumping him 4 times. Most of the guys I know and talk too have only caught 1 or 2 cats this year.

Houndnem, Glad to hear you have a unit that can handle constantly being pounded. I have my doubts but these are areas you hunt and so I will take your word on it. I can only tell you that in over 20 years of hunting the same units, we have seen a steady decrease to the point at which we are now. Adjacent tribal lands used to act as a refuge that insured we would always get some spill over, but the tribe has also found out there is moneys to be made by selling lion hunts.

cat and bear, you may have limited experience with lions, but you sure make alot of sense.

M Evertsen wrote:I do not live in Utah, and therefore I cannot say how the population is over there.
I do know, however, that I had the same thought as you. I could not find a lion track, looked into the harvest reports, and my conclusion was that there were too many female lions being killed. As time progressed, I learned to hunt lions, where to look for sign, and got away from the places most people hunt. I started seeing a lot of lion sign, and even caught a few.

One thing I do know of some people in Utah, is that there are some who have 30+ catches a year, and some very few. I can only judge by what I know, and for the areas I hunt, and the people I know, 15 catches a year is a good year for someone with a full time job. I am not sure how many people in Utah expect to catch in a year, so I have no opinion on that. I caught 4 (in 3 catches) this last year, and that was my best year yet. I thought that was quite good. I still should have had about 2 more catches, but thats behind me now, and nothing I can do about it.

I still check on the harvest reports, and try to promote being responsible in what we as houndsmen kill.

I too get a lecture at about every gas station. People keep saying, we are not killing enough lions, etc. I always ask how many they have killed, and its usually 0. I say how many I have killed, and it at least shuts them up temporarily.

I have also talked to people who have hunted lions around ranches, and if there is ever word that they let a female go, or killed a booner tom, they will not be let back on or near that property. Its just that simple. If there is anything that might jeopardize a rancher's way of making a living, it has to go, regardless of whether or not it has done damage at that point.

Ok Here is the thing... I hunt private ground in northern Utah where Lions are hardly ever harvested. I hunt with some pretty well known guys who have been hunting 30+ years. All of northern Utah has been over hunted, there are still lions there true. but every time one is found a guide goes up and kills it. That is not even my quarrel, neither is depredation. I do not know where the depredation argument came from. I do not have a problem with farmers protecting their animals. my problem is with guys like dave who talk a big game about being lion outfitters who kill everything they can then move on to the next one only to kill it even if it is a 60 lbs female....

My only suggestion to you then would be to talk to that person face to face, and find out his side of the story from his mouth. Coming on the internet and calling out his name is not how its done. If I did someone wrong, or made someone mad for whatever reason, I want that person to TALK TO ME, not put my name all over the internet.

M Everston I would suggest you read the entire thread, thanks.

M Everston did you read the reply were Dave was talked to personally. He did not care. I am sure he is not proud of what he is doing or he would have given the reasons for his actions to all of us. All we can do is specualte. Cmon Dave redeem yourself let us hear you reasons for doing it.

Martial , Like i said ,ihave talked to him.He's not interested in anything but filling tags .He's also a taxidermist so everything he kills he gets paid twice.I have a differant take on all this''only killing big females'' and ''i hate to see young or subadult lions killed'' crap .If someone is going to be happy with a female i'd say kill a little one .Why kill a mature female that can raise kittens .Most young females dont have that good of luck raising theirfirst litter anyway.Better yet spend a week before your client gets here and do some cutting for tracks and find a tom.I guided for twenty years and i refuse to take anybody anymore.There just arent enough lions in northern utah anymore.When they first opened utah to a quota system ,we never thought we'd run out of lions.Ten years later you can't even train young dogs on whats left.

coonhuntr1911 wrote:M Everston did you read the reply were Dave was talked to personally. He did not care. I am sure he is not proud of what he is doing or he would have given the reasons for his actions to all of us. All we can do is specualte. Cmon Dave redeem yourself let us hear you reasons for doing it.

I somehow missed that post, and I have read the entire thread. I did see where Dave asked for Timothy to call him.

Dave should not have to justify himself in front of the entire world for doing something that was legal. We still do not know why he did that, and the way I see it, someone who has the balls to call him out on this website should have the balls to go knock on his door. I have done it when I had a problem with people, and we have worked it out well. Actually, calling someone out like this on a website without knocking on the door and talking to the person face to face would be classified as cowardice in my book.

And my name is spelled EVERTSEN thank you.

everstien does that mean you are a coward for using this post by calling people names you dont have to face by your definition i think so.

I vowed that i would stay out of all of this but I can't any longer. Some good points have been made and some things taken to heart. Timothy I respect your ideas although they aren't even within the realm of possibilities. Every houndsmen but you realizes what happens with a zero female harvest. I think you are most upset because it was your female. Your neighboring landowner had the tag. This lion was on his cwmu also and was marked to die from day one. There was also a tom in there infrequently so this wasn't a trophy issue. No excuse there just a fact. You will never have a healthy lion population with the operators and landowners there. Do you think they don't know what a lion track looks like. They have been spending there own money for aerial coyote gunning. This isn't a simple little issue between me and you. This is alot bigger than you. By the way how many lions have you caught with your dogs? I would have to guess zero yet you are treated like an expert on here. That is the beauty of the internet anyone can be and say anything they want. As for the grossly inflated numbers of females I have killed, they are bs. They must assume I kill something everytime I am there. I have a better track record than most of filling my hunters tags with good tom lions and bobcats. Why aren't there any bobcats left in the cache valley? Not because of me. Why aren't the big fish guides in southern utah called out with names and phone numbers? The second female you mention is the same story, killed on a cwmu that is ruthless with predators. No excuses just a fact. If you had the balls to call me timothy you would have gotten alot further with it than this. I can't wait until next year when I let the next hound guy take over and you see more killed, or animal services, or poisons, etc. The problem you see is the landowner and stockman. I don't agree with them and this will probably cost me some prime opportunities but we are tools they use so I guess they will just grab another tool. The lion won't just get off easy. And why is it there aren't any lions left and I consistently catch 20-30 cats year after year in the same areas? You need to venture out a bit. There are multiple females that i haven't even run right under your nose, just not in your backyard. A houndsmen told me early on when I was hunting the same area hard and complaining, hunt somewhere else. Anybody who knows me knows I love lion hunting with a passion. There isn't a week all year long that I don't hunt. I make no apologies that I make a living doing this. I don't particularly like lawyers but I don't drag there names through the mud. Most people on here would love to outlaw guiding period. The feeling i get is people are talked down to on here if they don't kill the absolute biggest, longest dry ground blah blah blah. News flash everyone on here probably has a couple good dogs. Don't think you have the best dogs until you have hunted with alot of people. I am always humbled when I hunt with others. My commitment to my family means a hell of alot more to you as a houndsman, timothy. Call me a whore or whatever. And as for coonhuntr1911, insinuationg postmortem activities is a new low. Not so funny if I insinuate you are a molestor now is it, whoever you are. I would love to see all of your names posted on here instead of spouting off anonymously. I have been at the racs for 10 years right along with your well respected hound buddies (ask them how many females have been killed over their dogs) asking for female subs, I would even love tom only tags so don't even think that I don't care. As for a face to face at nugbha field trial, fat chance according to your father in law. He said after 20 years no more field trials on his farm due to caddy fighting houndsmen(Thanks timothy, talk about destroying a fun thing for the kids). I give the club one more year before you have forced everyone out. I also understand why all the older grade dog hunters have stayed away from the clubs, the internet, and the banquets. All that being said, I would love to never see another female killed over my dogs, hopefully it happens that way, I'll probably be in trouble with another group of vigilantes though. Oh yeah I hope none of you ever get caught turning loose too early, letting your pursuit permit accidentally lapse, running a sow with cubs, and on and on, not that any of you would ever do any of that because they are all game violations. Killing a legally tagged female is not. No excuses just a fact. I probably shouldn't even have responded and given you credibilty because I will just be villified even more. I am going to be in this for a long time and you may or may not be so next time you may want to rethink your handling of this.

Dave the hound show will be in heber this year I really cannot wait to meet you face to face. how long did it take you to write that long bullshit post? The funny thing is you wont have the nuts to show up to the field trial, because you know what you do is wrong. We know there is a tom passing through the area, we have seen his tracks. Unfortunatly I chose a real career, one that reqiures me to show up. Afterall not everybody can make a living hunting female lions It would have been nice to have been able to train on that female though, like you said i have not got any lions with my dogs. good thing you made your quick paycheck. The thing is you got permission to go in there to get a big tom, I guess you cant tell the difference. It is that or you are just a cheat who told your hunter he was gettting a nice tom! So how come you couldnt find a track in sheep canyon? too much game tracks in there for ya? ill give ya a hint check the moose tracks next time! Like you said you will lose some prime oppurtunities over this, so my way of handeling it worked out pretty well i think. You cant argue the facts you are and will always be known as a female killer. it is your actions not mine.