breeding with genetics in mind

[larry]

I think I owe you an apology mason. I completely overlooked the telling impressive showing of PERFORMANCE displayed in your new picture bud. That fat hound almost has that little cedar bent completely over! You must have bred the fat performance into him bud, so he can carry your ego and all . Even more impresive is the fact that he has so little desire in his PERFORMANCE breeding that he can't seem to get the motivation to grab onto that coon thats about 3 feet within reach! Can I get a pup from you bud? PLEASE!!!!

[Rockcreek]

I think I owe you an apology mason. I completely overlooked the telling impressive showing of PERFORMANCE displayed in your new picture bud. That fat hound almost has that little cedar bent completely over! You must have bred the fat performance into him bud, so he can carry your ego and all . Even more impresive is the fact that he has so little desire in his PERFORMANCE breeding that he can't seem to get the motivation to grab onto that coon thats about 3 feet within reach! Can I get a pup from you bud? PLEASE!!!!

Ahhh Larry... You are such a fine houndsmen, I wish I could even come close to what you THINK you are! LMAO!

That dog couldn't get ANY closer to that coon... damn her for trying! LMAO!

You prolly would shoot her though bud, I mean she'll catch game and won't fight in the box to save her life! (Definately NOT YOUR type of POS Plott hound) Keep livin that Macho dream of yours... I'll keep laughing at you.

All you interenet wonders are welcome to call me and come go hunting anytime... Should be an easy win over my sorry ass "Mustang" bred hounds.

Just call for reservations... if your dogs are that good, I'll make sure to get on here and tell how my dogs got trashed. LMAO!

You'll be FAMOUS in No time!

By the way Larry, That's a bitch dog in the photo... LMAO!

[Ankle Express]

This thread is one of the better ones I have read on here, please keep your thoughts and views going, I might even learn something.

I do have some questions for the experts:

If the dog is bred the best and doesn't turn out... Where are the genetics?

If the dog is scatterbred and turns out... Where are the genetics?

If I have the 2 best combo lion and bear dogs, from the same family, bred together and every pup is a cull... Where are the genetics?

IMO (That means In MY Opinion) there is much more to breeding dogs that perform, than GENETICS! You can use genetics to get size, shape, color... etc. but the truely gifted breeders know what dog will throw what and which pair to breed. I haven't ever talked to a single great breeder of PERFORMANCE dogs and heard them say anything about "Genetics".

This is just my opinion.

Take care.
Mason

I’ll take a stab at that one for you Mason. When best to best is tried and fails. Genetics may not necessarily be to blame still yet. Understanding ole’ best and best are key. Some may call it nurture but to me exposure and conditions around that exposure (training/hunting) makes some dogs be the best. It’s a fact more dogs make if given more time ie. Training and Exposure. A dog that makes the best around at 4-5 or because of certain accidental/unavoidable event that’s not reproducable naturally shouldn’t be bred. Early natural starting best to best and linebred should reproduce. Some of the best hounds I’ve owned were not completely natural. Love hate relationships. Conditions eventually shaped the dog. A natural shows it from day one. Doesn’t stay on death row for years if ever. There’s a huge difference.

[Rockcreek]

This thread is one of the better ones I have read on here, please keep your thoughts and views going, I might even learn something.

I do have some questions for the experts:

If the dog is bred the best and doesn't turn out... Where are the genetics?

If the dog is scatterbred and turns out... Where are the genetics?

If I have the 2 best combo lion and bear dogs, from the same family, bred together and every pup is a cull... Where are the genetics?

IMO (That means In MY Opinion) there is much more to breeding dogs that perform, than GENETICS! You can use genetics to get size, shape, color... etc. but the truely gifted breeders know what dog will throw what and which pair to breed. I haven't ever talked to a single great breeder of PERFORMANCE dogs and heard them say anything about "Genetics".

This is just my opinion.

Take care.
Mason

I’ll take a stab at that one for you Mason. When best to best is tried and fails. Genetics may not necessarily be to blame still yet. Understanding ole’ best and best are key. Some may call it nurture but to me exposure and conditions around that exposure (training/hunting) makes some dogs be the best. It’s a fact more dogs make if given more time ie. Training and Exposure. A dog that makes the best around at 4-5 or because of certain accidental/unavoidable event that’s not reproducable naturally shouldn’t be bred. Early natural starting best to best and linebred should reproduce. Some of the best hounds I’ve owned were not completely natural. Love hate relationships. Conditions eventually shaped the dog. A natural shows it from day one. Doesn’t stay on death row for years if ever. There’s a huge difference.

Can't argue with that!

[UphillDoc]

Succesful breeding is based on proper selection. If you want superior performance animals, that selection must be based on their performance. Genetics is a tricky thing, mostly in that it fools so many people into thinking they can achieve goals by following a set pattern. If you dont select the proper performing animals the science wont mean much in the end, in fact it may set you back farther/faster than if you had just bred two random animals together. On the other hand, breeding with no direction is almost as foolish, and rarely gets folks where they want to go.
How many of the old time breeders had even a basic knowledge of genetics? Most probably had no idea what an outcross vs inbreeding even was, BUT you can almost bet that those that were able to maintain a solid family were inbreeding, BUT not because it was inbreeding, (as so many do today), but rather because the animals that fit their criteria performed in a way that they wanted, and just happened to be related. Too many folks think they are the next genetic whiz kid, and spout their theories as if its a certainty they will work... If it was as easy as put A to B then back to A etc...we would all have superior animals. Too many hunters have a good dog that they have no idea of its genetics. They breed it to their friends best dog and are shocked when the pups are not as good as either one.
Sometimes folks get lucky inspite of how they breed, rather than because of how they breed. Some folks never own a cull, because they wouldnt recognise one if it was biting them. Some folks are never happy with what they have, because they dont really even know what they want. Sometimes when folks change the subject and go to name calling its because they have already said all they know about subject and cant stand to not be in the conversation. Some folks believe the first thing they ever heard on a subject, and will recite it over and over without ever questioning what they were first told.
Every man has something to teach you...it may be what to do, it may be what not to do, figuring it out is the hard part...

Take care.

[Eric Muff]

Nice!

[Mr.pacojack]

Succesful breeding is based on proper selection. If you want superior performance animals, that selection must be based on their performance. Genetics is a tricky thing, mostly in that it fools so many people into thinking they can achieve goals by following a set pattern. If you dont select the proper performing animals the science wont mean much in the end, in fact it may set you back farther/faster than if you had just bred two random animals together. On the other hand, breeding with no direction is almost as foolish, and rarely gets folks where they want to go.
How many of the old time breeders had even a basic knowledge of genetics? Most probably had no idea what an outcross vs inbreeding even was, BUT you can almost bet that those that were able to maintain a solid family were inbreeding, BUT not because it was inbreeding, (as so many do today), but rather because the animals that fit their criteria performed in a way that they wanted, and just happened to be related. Too many folks think they are the next genetic whiz kid, and spout their theories as if its a certainty they will work... If it was as easy as put A to B then back to A etc...we would all have superior animals. Too many hunters have a good dog that they have no idea of its genetics. They breed it to their friends best dog and are shocked when the pups are not as good as either one.
Sometimes folks get lucky inspite of how they breed, rather than because of how they breed. Some folks never own a cull, because they wouldnt recognise one if it was biting them. Some folks are never happy with what they have, because they dont really even know what they want. Sometimes when folks change the subject and go to name calling its because they have already said all they know about subject and cant stand to not be in the conversation. Some folks believe the first thing they ever heard on a subject, and will recite it over and over without ever questioning what they were first told.
Every man has something to teach you...it may be what to do, it may be what not to do, figuring it out is the hard part...

Take care.

Very well said

[larry]

How many of the old time breeders had even a basic knowledge of genetics? Most probably had no idea what an outcross vs inbreeding even was, BUT you can almost bet that those that were able to maintain a solid family were inbreeding, BUT not because it was inbreeding, (as so many do today), but rather because the animals that fit their criteria performed in a way that they wanted, and just happened to be related.

Seriously??? Wow, way to give credit to the intelligence of those that sarted and continued a breed of dog back in the day. There's alot more to the equation than outcross or inbreed, since line breeding seems to be the most consistent maybe it should have been mentioned, or were those old timers just way too dumb to figure that one out?

So where does this performance that you speak of come from??? And how is this performance passed down from generation to generation???

[houndnhorse]

Well I know an old fart that has a breeding manual from Germany, and the transalation manual for that book. Heck if anyone should know about breeding and genetics, shouldn't it be the Germans?

[larry]

The Germans created some very impressive breed of dogs

[UphillDoc]

larry-linebreeding IS inbreeding...seriously... I was not insulting the intelligence of the old timers but rather pointing out that genetics was even less understood 50-100 years ago than it is today.
Performance comes from what nature (genes) and nuture (enviorment) dictate...most the time. Many folks can tell you about the exception, ie...the ace performer that came out of two culls, or the cull that came from two aces. Breeding around those exceptions is the trap that the "performace is everything" and "its all in the blood" folks fall into. The way succesful breeders were/are able to maintain excellent performers is by the combination of the two, even if they dont understand why or are not able to articilate it. You know, the fella that just seems to have an "eye for the dogs".
I dont know you, so maybe answering a few questions for me will help me get a better picture of where you stand on the subject.
If you dont test for performance, how do you know if your going forward or backward? If breeding by genetics is a sure thing, then why are there so many "well bred" culls? Who do you think follows the genetics is everything model with sucess today?

Take care.

[larry]

larry-linebreeding IS inbreeding...seriously... I was not insulting the intelligence of the old timers but rather pointing out that genetics was even less understood 50-100 years ago than it is today.
Performance comes from what nature (genes) and nuture (enviorment) dictate...most the time. Many folks can tell you about the exception, ie...the ace performer that came out of two culls, or the cull that came from two aces. Breeding around those exceptions is the trap that the "performace is everything" and "its all in the blood" folks fall into. The way succesful breeders were/are able to maintain excellent performers is by the combination of the two, even if they dont understand why or are not able to articilate it. You know, the fella that just seems to have an "eye for the dogs".
I dont know you, so maybe answering a few questions for me will help me get a better picture of where you stand on the subject.
If you dont test for performance, how do you know if your going forward or backward? If breeding by genetics is a sure thing, then why are there so many "well bred" culls? Who do you think follows the genetics is everything model with sucess today?

Take care.

Fair enough, but i have to disagree about line breeding and inbreeding being the same thing, at least in the definitions that I subscribe to. Line bred dogs do not have a "inbred" mark on their papers, inbred dogs sometimes do. far as testing the performance, absolutely, the dogs have to perform and have to be in the "environment" to do so. As you said, it comes from the genes, my point. Performance and environment are a given if a cross is to be considered, a must. What else do you have to go off of after those two musts are determined? The genes that are passed from the parents. The only explanation for a "well bred cull" given that the environment and opportunity were provided, (if it's not then whoever is doin the breeding/testing has no business too) then that particular pup did not recieve the required genes from its parents as the other pups in the litter did, if they turned out. The paths that the genes travel and what ones are passed down is well above my pay grade, but if they aren't there then not much else will be IMO

[Riverbottom]

Excellent posts, Uphill.

I believe you can read everything ever written about breeding dogs and genetics and still not know anything about it. It's when the day comes that you realize that the hounds you bred and raised and fed and spent lots of money on are not going to work out, that's when the real learning takes place.

[Dan Edwards]

Scott, great posts. You can buy me a beer next year.

Larry, you remind me of them know it all bitches that dont roach their mules.

[Dan Edwards]

It's when the day comes that you realize that the hounds you bred and raised and fed and spent lots of money on are not going to work out, that's when the real learning takes place.


Then how come I aint learned nothin. You just wrote about the "story of my life".