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Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:09 pm
by liontracker
I do not believe that harvest information is an accurate way to determine the age structure of a bigame population. Maybe it would suffice for ungulates but I feel it is a bad way to go on lion, particularly when the first one up a tree gets killed. The way Lions are harvested skews the stats toward a younger age class.
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:50 pm
by Emily
Big Mike wrote:Talking with people who do the age data on teeth some will tell you it is exact others will tell you use more as an approximate which I feel is more true.
LT that is an interesting assumption about the population dynamics. Game managers are using these teeth analysis to try to exstablish population growth and declines. I find it hard to make too many assumptions. A 2.72 average one could say that a population is being over harvested and there isnt enough old lions around to boost the average. It could also say hunters arnt being very selective. One could also say there is a surplus of young lions because the population is growing and thats why a lot of young lions being harvested.
I feel that the only way one could tell much about the population is to look at 5-10 year trends in the overall age class. If the overall age keeps increasing over time its safe to say the population is growing, and if the teeth age is declining the opposite would be true.
There are just too many factores involved to make accurate opinions in on short term.
For instance we have a sheep area that we kill about 20 lions in each year. they average 1-2 yr old cats. So what does this tell you. Is there enough lions left to reproduce 20 young lions to get killed each year? Or does it say every young lion that migrates into that area is getting killed and there are no resident lions?
I agree with you, Big Mike. The only thing this is telling you about your sheep area is that no older lion would stay in a territory like that unless it was desperate. Those 20 lions are coming from someplace. The actual harvest doesn't tell you how many lions pass through without getting killed, or what their ages are, but you do know that there is a steady replacement rate of about 20 lions of the same young age.
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:17 pm
by Emily
liontracker wrote:Emily...not really...those broken teeth were broken on removal by the field technician
and not used to calculate the age data.
I still think there's a younger age bias there. All of us get weaker teeth as we get older. Some young teeth may break as they're being pulled, but an old tooth is more likely to crumble. JMO
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:03 am
by liontracker
Oh, now I see.
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:18 am
by jasonmark
Makes you wonder if the biologists aren't using (mikes tricks) like the scientist's with climategate or the banksters and corporation's cooking the books, a little truth would be refreshing from time to time.
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:23 am
by Big Mike
Age doesnt matter when pulling out the tooth as far as breaking them goes. It just depends if the skull is frozen or not. Harder to get them out when there frozen sometimes break in the process.
I agree, teeth ageing gives good data and over long term ten year spans or so one could tell trends. But I feel there is too many other variables to say how a population is doing just by age class od harvested lions.
But teeth age data coupled with ground experience(which most game managers dont have)one can make pretty good analysis of the population.
Re: Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:37 am
by nhunter84
Everything I have learned about teeth aging recently says that it is always an approximation. The younger the animal the more exact age you can get. As for stating trends in populations you definantely need to look at longer time periods of data.
You caught any lions yet this season Mike? I heard people have been catching a bunch this year.