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The hunter who shot it came over and said that damn guy told me this was as big as any tom lion on the mountain. Heck I didn't know so I blasted it, and then I see this. I consoled a bit and told him he had a resprectable trophy and that few lions every lived long enough to grow to this size. He said well I can sure as hell see why that is when you got outfitters like this guy who almost wanted to pull the trigger of my gun for me so it didn't get away. LOL!

so there you go.....Mike Leonard

So was the visitor wrong or his local guide greedy to get his fee?You sure don't pay for a trip and think you can't trust the local guys.
My entire point is this is not a problem that can have a single pat answer of "blame the outsider".

I suggest u look into who filled that quota up. I have been outfitting lion hunts for 11 years and have found that weekenders that rarely catch a lion are the hardest on females. They drive and drive weekend after weekend and when one does pop up its in trouble. Im not saying they are all like this but u all are giving outfitters a bad name. So I thought I would respond. I cringe when there are good conditions and the weekend is here. I gave up hoping the weekenders would leave the females alone and started paying for up to six rigs to go catch every lion possible all weekend just to save them.

I seen a picture last year of a lion hit by a train 10 miles from my house. cut it in half.
The bear unit closed down in unit 9/10 by a road kill that sucked. We really need a pursuit season.I think if we did houndsmen would see more animals. Therefore educating themselves on the maturity of the animals they harvest. When I first got started i shot the first bear and lion that the dogs caught. I was not educated. I thought i was just notching the belt on another animal and doing the dogs a favor by letting them get some fur to chew. I was wrong.Now after seeing some different animals and different sizes the hunt has a different meaning.I have a feeling that lion will soon be male only. They have the quiz on the game and fish site now. But a pursuit season would be nice. Hell i would buy another licsence just to do that.

Ranger wrote: I cringe when there are good conditions and the weekend is here. I gave up hoping the weekenders would leave the females alone and started paying for up to six rigs to go catch every lion possible all weekend just to save them.

An outfitter buddy of mine always claimed that the number of Friday snow storms was the largest factor in how many lions would die over the winter season. I've watched people shoot large toms and bitches out of the tree, and everything in between. People do it for different reasons, either not wanting to go home empty, or not knowing what they are looking at, or pushed by a pushy guide, or for depredation, or even for safety reasons. I've watched this state go from being protective over lions to wanting more and more harvested, and more recently stating that hunters should attempt to take only tom lions. Attitudes seem to change as the lion populations change, and I suppose that's why this disscussion has come up.

I will say that after a hounddogger has watched a friend or client knock down a female or two, and if they then get to watch a large tom hit the ground, that the hounddogger couldn't possibly be very proud of himself for that harvest. Somehow a 80 or 90 pound bitch lion just doesn't seem like much after handling a 160 or 170 pound tom. Perhaps the large question is how do we instill those values in others? How do we promote the idea that killing off the young and female populations does nothing but hurt our sport? How do we get one man or woman to consider how their actions impact the rest of us? Instead of living by the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) it's more like "get mine before somebody else gets it........so is it the competition drive in us that help us make those decisions?

Well, good luck changing attitudes and saving the lion population both cause controlling other people is hard to do.........for me, I'll be careful who I let go to the tree with me, always attempt to talk them out of a female, never push a hunter on any harvest (if they don't want that animal--tom or bitch--then walk away), and think long and hard about letting a harvest hunter in my truck......

ike

Back to my analogy I certainly don't blame the outsider who most likely has never seen a lion of any size outside of a zoo before.

Also Ranger has a very valid point many weekenders especially the newer ones do whack their share. I am glad he is able to subsidize 5-6 rigs to go out and save the lions. Now that is a new one---not saying I don't buy it I just haven't ever heard somebody step right up and say that. I am going to ask for harvest dates and outfitter information on all female lions taken. It is public information and so it could be a real revelation, Not all but nearly all out of state cougar licenses go to client hunters.


In NM the srongest lobby the Game and Fish Commision faces is the Outfitter's Association. If anybody could convince them a pursuit season would be good it would be the outfitters. The only problem is there is not much money in pursuit.


This is a very complexed subject and there is no easy answer or no pat answer anyway. The easy answer would be no female harvest period outside of problem or depredation.

Fold that one up and see how far it will fly. Not!

i would just like to make an offer on the dog that trailed up the old dried out cat in the picture, is he for sale?

Our state was over harvesting females and it was a concern for the State.
They held lion hunter meetings and answered all questions and the lion hunters in general volutarily stoped shooting females for 3-4 years. Our population almost doubled.
Now the State "wants" us to shoot some females. At first they said "volunteers" would not work, and when it did, it kept us from having a female quota forced on us, with all those problems.

Well, maybe our managers are looking at what your state did cause they have for the first time place into the proclamation that "they recomend hunters only take male lion." The plan is to allow more tags if fewer females are killed or decrease tags if more are killed, so we'll see if any of the houndsmen read the proclamation or listened........

Only problem I see is that the deer herds have never recovered from the late eighties and a thriving lion population has to have a thriving mule deer population......

ike

Hey Mike wanting to know your opinion if the New Mexico houndsmen association would be able to push for a pursuit season? We have one for raccoon. why not Lion. Maybe make the august season {for bear} Pursuit only. The coats arent very good in august anyway. I dont know maybe just a thought.

Its all about the money them outfitters are making, they way they kill anything they can catch.........its bull shit....

I would like to see a pursuit season but I doubt it will happen.

The State of New Mexico enforcement group(with some exceptions_BM)
has a very dim view of big game hound hunters. Hard to beleive I know but it is true. LOL!

No really they have the opinion because of some problems they have encountered that if guys are out in the woods chasing big game with hounds they need to step up enforcement because these guys are going to step over the line and do something unlawful. Say shoot a big deer or elk , you know the usual stuff. With the very tight State budget they can't afford to have officiers running all over at all hours as they can barely cover the excisting big game season. In fact they have to shuffle officiers all over the state to cover areas as it is. So it is doubtful it would even be considered. this is just another reason why I posted what I did about not making a mess out in the woods it just adds fuel to the fire.

The northern section of the state seems to suffer much more if this sentiment than does the south or southwest.

First off I want to clarify my first post for Vabear. I didn't mean only people from back east are coming out here to kill a lion. I was just using it as a reference. I don't know what the term for a person that comes to hunt lion for a one time deal would be called. I know in cowboy terms they would be called a "dude" I meant it in that kind of context.

Secondly, we also need to remember where the revenue of every lion tag goes to... The state... I am NOT sure about other states other than Wyoming, but the oufitters and guides pay and annual fee to have their permits... Who does that money go to...the state again. So all those that hope to get laws changed and all that good stuff to benefit the average houndsman that just wants to run dogs and tree a few lion each season good luck, cause the state is not making the big bucks off of you.

That also brings to mind something that happened a couple years ago. Each year for the last 4 or 5 years the Sheridan Regional G&F office would ask me to renew my depredation contract. Each year I did and never once got a call. Anyways, 2 years ago a bear came into Dayton and my son came in one night and said it was digging in the dumpster outside our house. Well he and I chased it down the street ourselves. I was on the phone with the warden and told him I would go get Ozzy and Scarlett and have them tree it then he can do whatever needed to be done. He said no just keep an eye on it and he would be there. We managed to get it cornered in someones back yard. By the time the warden got there it had escaped and was on the run again. I asked if he wanted me to get the dogs again and it would be treed straight away. He said no he would come tomorrow with a trap. Said that as soon as I put my dogs on it the G&F would have to pay me my houndsman fee. He set the trap and a week later still no bear in it. lol

So the point of this story is, they want to only make money off of the lions and bears, not lose it. The outfitters bring in the revenue not the average houndsman. If houndsman could find a way for the state to profit from a pursuit season or from people only harvesting toms then I think they would consider changing things. Until then the more money they have to put out for depredation lions and bears the more they care less about what lions or bears get killed each year.

Just my opinion on that

I know I have it good up here, but what is happening below the 49th cannot be good. I have one hunter booked for next season who has hunted Utah3 times for a lion. On the third hunt the outfitter had him shoot a 80lb female. Another hunter who will be here in January has also hunted cats 3 times, between Montana, and Idaho. He to shot a female on his last trip, as in three trips this was the first cat he had seen in a tree. The outfitters definately must take their fair share. Apperently all the outfitters involved have good reputations and are respected outfitters in their areas. As both these hunters did a lot of research before booking the hunts.

The pursuit season would be nice but there is no chance of it happening anytime soon. I think we need to put more time and energy into educating sportsmen on Iding of toms and females. That would be an easy first step in the right direction. Then the helping people realize that we are not managing elk or deer. Lions need a different approach in managing.
We have all the clubs and orginizations to make this possible so maybe its time to start doing it. Maybe some news letters to all outfitters can be a start stressing the importance of killing males over females. Then maybe letters to all resident lion hunters (if thats possible). I dont know just throwing around some ideas that might help out OUR situation.

Thanks, Joe Troyer

Pursuit is the only solution. Cause those females are gonna die .. no amount of education is going to help. The almighty dollar and the weekend hunter that never catches much will fill that female quota every time.

Best focus on a pursuit season.

Good Luck.

I see golf and fishing in my future.. and no barking dogs.

Hey Bency ? Lions everywhere down here ??? Really ? Guess I'm hunting in the wrong places.. but then again I aint got them dry ground dogs .. and I dont know much