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I'm an innocent until proven guilty guy. I've found that the dogs know a hell of a lot more than I do. I also work a young dog with an e-collar around the yard before they get out in the field so they know what going on.

Rico wrote:Here is another idea Codelarry. You giving advice to Catdogs is like me teaching you stupid!!! Just don't make sense does it.

Go ahead an fire away with your well thought out rebuttal. I'll try not to cry.

i was hopin you could teach me how to not be able to catch bears, let someone spoon feed a couple to my dogs, and then piss backwards on them for their trouble Thats more your style isn't it?

catdogs wrote:Lets say you suspect a trash race. Is it worse to shock the dog when maybe it was not trash, or to not shock the dog when it was in fact trash.??? Or maybe I'll put it this way. You think the dog is trashing and you shock him and it turns out he was not trashing OR, you don't shock the dog because you aren't sure if he's trashing and it turns out he was trashing. Which scenario is the worst for the dog? Now I know ideally, it would be best to confirm one way or the other, but lets face it, that is not always possible to do before the dogs get out of range.

i would hope that for $500 a month to train you would have the answer, maybe better lower the rate to the goin rate

I don't shock when hunting or anytime for the most part but I will physically correct them anytime. My mutts will trash about anytime on about anything it seems like though. With that said its still not been a huge problem for me. I'll adjust on one individually if I feel they are out of hand during a set-up situation. I don't own a shock collar, so its a real come to Jesus type of meeting. For most I'll be the scariest thing they'll encounter. Mine don't get the chance really to trash though unless they are leaving the track I set them on to do it. I put up with young dog behavior and let them be young dogs. They are going to be that way whether you like it or not anyway. The dog I'm after though will come around to my way of thinking eventually or they don't stay around my place. I've seen dogs run one or a handful of alot of off game and break themselves. I've also seen the exact opposite. One trash race and they'll take anything hot. I can't stand a dog that has to run every new smell to see what it is. Means anything new from now on is a trash race and lesson. Hard to hunt new ground with dogs like that. Boils down to whether the dog wants to hunt for and suit me or hunt for themselves as well as what they were truly bred to do. It should be more like showing a duck water instead of teaching it to swim. Maybe because I'm in bear dogs that comes easier? I think so. I feel like a real bear dog wants to catch and fight bears more than anything else. Enough to eventually break themselves off anything else. Thats the dog I'm after and will end up with. I've straightened out some confused dogs over the years and an owner intent on finishing a dog before two years of age with a shock collar in hand is usually to blame. The signals get crossed someway. I know that personally I have to absorb a situation or anything new for a while to completely understand the big picture. Crash courses often just result in more confusion. For whatever its worth trash was a problem long before shock collars and folks still hunted good straight ENOUGH dogs. I don't think the game has changed. JMO