RED Wolves X COYOTES

[Pops]

Bob
my darling wife said, everyone should read that post, as it's a rare occassion when i say something intelligent.
i love her (mostly because she takes good care of my children w/o strangling them no matter how much they deserve it, & she has big jugs).

[Borderpond]

Yup Bob, that one was shot in Maine. Shooter was a guy from Long Island that I was guiding. That "coyote" was as close to being a wolf as anything I have ever seen in person. I was some glad when the wardens just put a tag on it and let the hunter take it. It was shot in front of the hounds in deep snow.

[pegleg]

coyotes are a adaptable species for sure. I've shot some larger then normal coyotes in Colorado. I've also seen some colors that raise some questions. in about 86 there were some black "coyotes" in Oklahoma panhandle north west of lake etling. I believe there's quit a bit of coy\dog hybridization going on. Here in Arizona I saw one coyote with such a creamy colored coat that it was surely a hybrid. The odd thing is these coyotes weren't anywhere close to a large population center where I would assume the likely hood of crosses would be higher. who knows but its interesting.

[Rem700]

Bob sent you a PM

[bob baldwin jr]

Borderpond: I was curious if this event happened on a dedicated YOTE hunt or NOT. If so what kind of hounds are you using? I have seen some what I would refer to as unuasually colored yotes but have yet to put any of those down . Certainly have NOT seen any BLACK yotes ,But have talked to a few that have CLAIMED to have seen some. Sometimes when you strike up a conversation with someone you have to think twice what they are saying

I do have some friends and outfitters up in THE COUNTY that I truly do beleve are telling the truth that they HAVE ARRIVED. These are guys that I have Complete confidence in and NO reason to not believe what they are saying

Never had any reason to dispel what most wardens have said ,but I do find it interesting that when I bring up the subject to them the last few years they tend to CAREFULLY pick their words in response. The subject is a very controversial one in Maine and the Fish and Game Political machine in Agusta does NOT want to get INVOLVED in the controversy.

I guess the good thing to say about your situation was The wardens let your customer Tag and Take it . No outfitter NEEDS or WANTS any Negative PUBLICITY Yet I have to ask you if you ever receive any type of questionaire from the state on an annual basis reguarding this subject ? or know anyone who has.?

I will apologize to you for asking BUT do you attend any Maine Guides Assoc meetings if so is this a topic that is discussed formally or informally?

If any one else on this forum is in a USA state that borders Canada are these common issue that you have also .?

I thank everyone for their responses as you can tell it is a topic I am VERY interested in THANKS AGAIN

BOB BALDWIN
E-mail : bigbob817@hotmail.com
PH : 502-529-6932

[Borderpond]

Hi Bob, a "dedicated yote hunt " far from it. Hunter wanted a big yote to mount. That was his reason for booking the hunt. Well we had fresh snow so we had tree hounds and the running walkers both in the truck. First track we cut was a fresh cat track. Told the hunter we should try this first as we can always find a coyote track.He was up for it but really wanted the yote over a cat(go figure ? )

Took out my cold trailing bear hound and gave him a try. He went out cold trailing nice. Couple hundred yards in and hes jumped ,making nice tight circles in spruce thickets. I ease into the circle with the hunter, his shotgun at the ready. Couple minutes later that huge yote runs up and stops 20 yards away across a brook. Bang and its over. Few seconds later here comes my top bear dog just a screaming down that yote track. Ran it right up to where we were standing with the dead coyote !!!!! Darnest thing. I'm yelling no no no and correcting my dog with a switch and the hunters jumping up and down high fiving me while hes giving me a $200 tip !!!

As a very wise houndsman I know always says " I dont explain it,I just report it"

The most exstenisve research I know of on the genetics of eastern coyotes is the research project done several years ago in Maine.It basically showed a higher percentage of wolf blood than western coyote blood in the majority of examined coyotes. On a side note , snaring in Maine was outlawed due in large part because of this study. The donated carcasses, many from snaring, were examined and used as evidence of animal cruelty by the antis.

[Borderpond]

There is a bigger picture of that "wolfy looking " coyote here along with some others.

http://mainecoyote.com/archivephotos.html

I have seen several color phases her in New England, from black to almsot red. I have a tanned blonde one I shot several years ago .It weighed 57 lbs on cert scaled 2 days after shooting it. A buddy trapped a beautiful black one a couple miles from my house.I will take a picture of the mount and post it sometime this week.

I just took this off Wikiapedia.Its from the study I mentioned earlier.


Coyotes have also been known on occasion to mate with wolves, though this is less common than with dogs, due to the wolf's hostility to the coyote. The offspring, known as a coywolf, is generally intermediate in size to both parents, being larger than a pure coyote, but smaller than a pure wolf. A study showed that of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had half or more wolf ancestry, and one was 89 percent wolf. A theory has been proposed that the large eastern coyotes in Canada are actually hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and wolves that met and mated decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New England from their earlier western ranges.[22] The Red Wolf is thought by certain scientists to be in fact a wolf/coyote hybrid rather than a unique species. Strong evidence for hybridization was found through genetic testing, which showed that red wolves have only 5% of their alleles unique from either gray wolves or coyotes. Genetic distance calculations have indicated that red wolves are intermediate between coyotes and gray wolves, and that they bear great similarity to wolf/coyote hybrids in southern Quebec and Minnesota. Analyses of mitochondrial DNA showed that existing red wolf populations are predominantly coyote in origin

[bob baldwin jr]

Borderpond : Interesting facts you stated I had not read that before

[Borderpond]

Bob, when you said interesting facts that you had not read before I assume you meant about the coyote genetics and not my dogs trashing ?? LOL Pretty sure the facts of my dogs trashing are well known !!!

Its funny to think that 25 or so years ago, we didnt even have coyotes here in N.H. That wolf restoration stuff just drives me nuts. If its meant to be they will end up here on their own.They certainly dont need humans to help them out.

Oh, and I forgot to answer your earlier question.No, I do not attend any Maine Guide meetings.

[pegleg]

Bob there is and always has been a tendency for people to find a young wild animal and out of what ever reason decide to bring it home and raise it. this leads to some experimentation on their part usually and if you will notice the quotes around the word coyote you should be able to understand that a large portion of the variance we see in coyotes are do to human influence. The fact that you've never seen a black coyote in no way means these hybrids aren't out there. I've seen hybrids between heelers and also a hybrid between a Chesapeake retriever that visually you'd swear was nothing more then pure coyote. In any western community the deciding factor of weather it's a coyote or dog is generally the way it acts if it acts like a coyote treat it like a coyote...

[bob baldwin jr]

Borderpond Of course I was refering to the FACTS. I would NEVER call anyones hounds TRASHY. That would br like calling your wife/girlfriend or kids the same thing . Rather keep my mouth shut.

Pegleg: I get your point about if it acts like a coyote . There is a place in New Hampshire that started as a refuge for Hy-bred dogs that has now been confirmed as a Wolf/ Dog refuge center . People that take a wild critter out of the woods and try to either domesticate it or cross breed it , I often wonder what they are thinking.