Old vs New

[arizonabeagle]

i think it all depends on what you hunt, and where like stated above
but also with the price of a "good" dog or pup out of "proven" lines bein what it is, it seems it will only grow as lands available to hunt continue to diminish

but the price a guy has to pay for a pup these days sure affects his attitude towards culling a dog and that could lead to keeping and hunting dogs with habits most would consider bad, such as ill tempered, slick treeing, no tree power, me too dogs etc.
most of us dont have the luxury of bein able to breed our own lines
so more guys are forced to say "maybe next year he'll get better, or snap out of it" instead of "this aint workin, NEXT"
so i guess would couldnt really say. like mr lenoard said, you cant bring them old dogs back to see
i guess thats why we are so curious as to what the guys that have been around doing it for years who may have hunted or seen these dogs has to say...

[bency]

theres hounds everywhere for low money...you just have to look hard enough, and learn to pull that trigger.

[Ike]

I did a little research on the summer Olympics on the world's fastest man in 2008 and then compared it to the world's fastest man in 1912. Interesting enough, modern day man beat the records set by men competing in the early 1900s.........

100 Meters................9.69 seconds...................08/16/2008
100 Meters...............10.6 seconds....................07/06/1912

200 Meters...............19.30 seconds..................08/20/2008
200 Meters...............21.6 seconds...................08/31/1904

Man has evolved through training, nutrition, exposure and most likely knowledge to become faster than he once was; likewise, the modern day hounds and houndsmen have the opportunity to learn from the past through looking back plus ready access to information around the world. Just imagine if the hounddoggers of old could link up over the Internet and see photos and learn about what others are doing in the field. I liked some of what Mike Leonard said when he talked about the gene pool and access we have to other hunters that men and hounds of old did not have.

I don't know that education and learned knowledge from others necessarily makes a better hound or hunter out of a man.....but it certainly gives both hound and man a better chance to excel.........

ike

[Eric Muff]

I agree with alot of this stuff and disagree with just as much.
I often wonder what the hounds of today would perform like in the hands of those famous hunters of days past.
Could be that the answer lies in that,not the hound being better but the hunter being less capable.

[Yard Dog]

I don't know if the dogs from years ago were necessarily better than todays dogs, but I do believe that they probably were exposed to more game. Looking at the permit data from Utah, cougar persuit permit #'s are as follows:
1979 114
1988 147
1998 635
2008 880

Total harvest they showed for 2002 was 406 cats, for 2008 it was 282 cats.
The majority of the cats were in the 2 1/2 year old range.

Livestock depredation incidents were around 118/year from 1993-1998, they were around 40/year from 2005-2008. (could be from less sheep in the hills?)

Bottom line more hunters+less cats=less opportunity to get dogs on game. Think about how much it has changed for each of us in the last 20 years.

[pegleg]

I am hoping the hounds have improved in some ways. could the hounds of years gone by have been as good if hunted as infrequently as today's hounds are sometimes. how great would the Lilly hounds have been the game catching machines they were if they only got hunted on weekends and holidays during today's game seasons? How many of us have the time patience and resources to train the slash ranch bloodhounds to the perfection they were drilled to ? how many old time meat hunters cussed their hounds because they wouldn't stay treed long enough for them to get to the tree and get that fur or meat harvested? Do we have some sorry hounds ? yes they"re out there. How many hunters hunt four or more days a week all season? how hard was it to trash break a hound before E collars? Remember that great hound you had as a kid the one you worked with and hunted every spare minute you had. how much better of team would you and your hounds be today if you spent that much time with them? I believe we breed and waste more good hounds now then were available in the past. yes there has been a split in the direction the various groups/styles of houndsmen have taken in their breeding and your less likely to take a top competition coon dog and make a super dry ground big game hound out of it but you don't have to anymore!

[Ike]

I don't know if the dogs from years ago were necessarily better than todays dogs, but I do believe that they probably were exposed to more game. Looking at the permit data from Utah, cougar persuit permit #'s are as follows:
1979 114
1988 147
1998 635
2008 880

Total harvest they showed for 2002 was 406 cats, for 2008 it was 282 cats.
The majority of the cats were in the 2 1/2 year old range.

Livestock depredation incidents were around 118/year from 1993-1998, they were around 40/year from 2005-2008. (could be from less sheep in the hills?)

Bottom line more hunters+less cats=less opportunity to get dogs on game. Think about how much it has changed for each of us in the last 20 years.

If we killed everything we treed, toms, young toms, bitches and kittens, like hound hunters of old we wouldn't need any more hounds after only a few short years cause there wouldn't be any left!

If the Fish and Game put me on salary, gave me a truck plus benefits, and told me to wipe out the lion population in my area it wouldn't be very many years and a track would be rare in these parts! Just because many of us don't kill everything we tree legal doesn't make us any less a hunter.

ike

[Benny G]

Ike, I'm thinking that either you hunt ONLY in the snow, or you are an exceptional hunter! To believe that the lion population could be wiped out across their range IMO is crazy. The feds had the same bounty program on lions, coyotes, wolves and grizzlys. Some of the old time guys made their livings off of the lion bounty. they never ran out of lions to hunt. I know govt. hunters today that NEVER run out of lions to hunt. On the average, a gov. hunter is required to hunt 250 days a year. Out side of the use of traps or snares, I am aware of only one place where the lion population has been decimated by the use of dogs. The hunter responsible for drastically changing the lion population is an extremely talented hunter. I guess the problem that I have with such blanket statements is that surely you can't be talking about dirt hunting too. Or maybe I'm just jealous becaus I've never been that good or had dogs that could go hard enough to catch every lion that made a track.

[Yard Dog]

Ike,
My point is that there are more houndsmen competeing to get dogs on less tracks. I read an article you had written about some of your hunting expirences you had in the bookcliffs back in the mid 90's. Pretty good read. However the hunting you experienced back then is a far cry from what you will experience now. You have said it yourself on some of your post. Nothing to do with being less of a hunter.

[Ike]

...........

[Benny G]

IMO - key words AND photo---snow!
How do ypu measure your lions? I've never been able to get one to go over 7' 4". I'm still jealous.

[larry]

IMO - key words AND photo---snow!
How do ypu measure your lions? I've never been able to get one to go over 7' 4". I'm still jealous.

How are you measuring them? A skinned 7'4" lion, nose to end of tail, is about 115-120lbs

[Benny G]

Larry,
I peg mine. Lay the lion on it's side (the whole entire lion, complete body in the hide) mark on the ground the tip of the nose and the end of the stretched out tail, remove the lion, measure with a tape measure between the two points, and that is the measurement I use. If the doctor would skin me, then tie me between two vehichles headed in opposite directions, read the tape at exactly the point of maximum stretch, I would be a lot taller than I have been all of my life.
To each their own, just comparing notes is all.

[Ike]

IMO - key words AND photo---snow!
How do ypu measure your lions? I've never been able to get one to go over 7' 4". I'm still jealous.

Excuse me cause I didn't notice that you are from New Mexico and must be one of those REAL DIRT LION HUNTERS huh? roflmao again and again. In the snow states we usually tie a lion hide between two mules after we skin it and quit right before they pull it in two.....oh yea, and you have to measure them under tension as well!

ike

[larry]

Larry,
I peg mine. Lay the lion on it's side (the whole entire lion, complete body in the hide) mark on the ground the tip of the nose and the end of the stretched out tail, remove the lion, measure with a tape measure between the two points, and that is the measurement I use. If the doctor would skin me, then tie me between two vehichles headed in opposite directions, read the tape at exactly the point of maximum stretch, I would be a lot taller than I have been all of my life.
To each their own, just comparing notes is all.

Yeah, I'm goin by taxidermy measurements to fit forms, pretty sure you don't wanna stretch em too much and try to mount a 120lb lion on a 160lb form. But thanks for the assumption that i over stretch em to make em sound bigger, i don't need to do that, theres enough guys on this board already "stretching" the truth between two trucks.