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I'll stick with my original opinion. Rigging and running track are two different facets of hunting hounds. Everybody should train the way they feel is most productive. I've seen several dogs shut down on the box because of mistaken "correcting" on the box. If they strike trash, let them take the track and then correct them. If they are barking on or in the box just to bark because they are excited, I would definitely consider shocking them, but as lightly as possible.

cobalt wrote:I'll stick with my original opinion. Rigging and running track are two different facets of hunting hounds. Everybody should train the way they feel is most productive. I've seen several dogs shut down on the box because of mistaken "correcting" on the box. If they strike trash, let them take the track and then correct them. If they are barking on or in the box just to bark because they are excited, I would definitely consider shocking them, but as lightly as possible.

Why then would a broke dog run trash, i think that it must smell different from the air, cause i had a dog that would rig, and rig hard but, put him on the ground and he would run around but wouldn't go anywhere, i found he did this alot with coyotes, i think you have to retrashbreak them on the box to, not so hard the first few times, cause you don't want to discourge them, but after a few rigs they will have it down, its like traning a puppy, you don't shock a puppy if the first thing it runs is deer, not until it gets trailing down, then you keep a firm hand on them. and agian it depends on the dog, if its an older dog barking in the box, ya i would shock them, but if its first time on the box i wouldn't, and a puppy i wouldn't till it had been on top a few times, last year we rigged this bear hard and had him walk down the road for over a mile, we threw up all the dogs we had, even my friends nine month old puppy, she didn't know what she was doing, but i believe she ran harder because of it too, that was the first tree she had made. this is my opinion

Im going to have to agree with Mikes hero on this one. Once you start breaking them they should be disaplined in the box just as much as they should be out of the box. You will get sure (straight) rig dogs that way.

You can't be afraid to discipline a pup any where be it on the box , at the tree, in the box, I'm not talking about taking there heads off just getting on them a little and correcting them, it all depends on the age and the hard headedness of the dog, some can take some thrashing and some cannot, most of mine if look at them hard they know they have screwed up others you thrash on them and they come back like nothing has happened.

I'll side with Cobalt on this one.I would say don't shock your dog on the box IF you can accomplish the same end by trash breaking them on the ground.That is just good common sense.Why risk sending a young dog the wrong message or confusing him if you don't have to.Sure,there is going to be times when it may be necessary for some dogs to be shocked on the box but if you have done your ground work properly then you can minimize the possibility of having to do that.

Mikes Hero wrote:The other option would be to just run off of baits like all of the southern and eastern Idaho guys do. This method is easier for both hound and houndsmen. It requires much less knowledge of both the hounds the bears habits. It's kind of like hound and bear hunting 101.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement.I use to think the same thing until I actually did it and I learned different.I don't call myself a bait hunter but I have done it and there are some things that hounds can learn from running off a bait.Some of the coldest tracks my dogs have ironed out started off a bait.Take a good rig dog that has not been run on baits much and a dog that has been run off baits quite a bit and dump them down on a bait and see what happens.It can be amazing to watch how fast some dogs have learned to sort out the comings and goings on a bait and get it lined out in short order and can make otherwise good dogs look pretty bad.I think bait is just another tool that a guy can use to make a better dog.

I've heard that dogs that run off bait alot will strike on the bait even when there hasn't been a bear there in three days, we can't use bait here in hunters hell, but is there any truth to this?

Yes,that is a possibility.

We run off baits all the time and never had a problem with it. When they open in the box there is bear very close.

Mike'shero, bristolblues, Dale T, and rubyswampb&t; If you are having success with your training methods and have been making top rig dogs for years and years, then I think you should stick with your program. I try to stick with my program because it works for me and I am adament about this belief, but that doesn't mean it works for everybody. Also, if running bears off baits is childsplay, I think you need to try it. It's not as simple as it would appear to be. Many baits get hit and the animal is gone by midnight and is not laying up close and your dogs have to unravel a 6 or 7 hour track of a bear that has been dogged before, hears you pull up to the bait and is running jumped before a dog hits the ground. Any method can be easy as well as hard.

i agree with you on some of what your saying colbalt, but i've seen a dog that would rig trash off the box, and i don't mean my dog, was an unlces dog, but wouldn't go anywhere when it was on the ground, this is with deer or elk, and he never got discourged, cause my uncle was afraid to do it while on the box, to me thats just not right. just a question, don't get riled up, but if you drove by a heard of elk and your dogs blew up would you shock them?

I'll never shock a dog on the box, those electric brakes are pretty harsh for any dog to handle and you can wreck a good young dog right now with them if you don't know how rough they are try them on your leg, I did and I have a whole new attitude about that power!
I've seen more dogs wrecked then made with the power.

Don't worry about me getting riled up. I'm kinda past that on this internet stuff, I just try to help with some topics and I know 99% of what is recommended is not followed anyway. There are too many variables with most dog training to really give advice without drawing a 10 page map. And too many cooks spoil the broth. Also, there are many successful ways to train dogs and as I said earlier, if it's worked for you and you feel you are have the success you seek then it's all good. To answer your question, if my dogs blew up on some elk that were crossing the road and I had pretty broke dogs then I would have to ask myself "what the hell is going on" unless they were not striking the elk. If they were, then I would let them go to make sure that's what they were rigging and fry them when they opened on the track. A few years ago I drove up on a bunch of cows and my dogs struck. I was pissed off and sceamed at them to shut up. They did but 5 seconds later they struck again. I thought they'd lost their minds so I let them down. They ran right through the cows which scattered and up the bank, started a track and caught a bear. Another time I was with a friend and the dogs started popping and then ducking. I was confused until a deer jumped in the road and ran down the road, 5 seconds later the dogs were roaring and I fryed my lead dog. My buddy got out, cut his dogs loose. They ran up the bank started a track and treed a bobcat in short order. My lead dog never got over that and to this day will not strike bobcat even though I know he smells them.

In my experience, phenominal rig dogs are few and far between, average rig dogs are a dime a dozen. If you've ever had a great one, the one that pisses all your friends off, you'll never want anything less and if you do a lot of frying on the box, you take the chance of ruining something or at least lessening the chances you have of possessing one. It's like if you don't let a dog work a lot of cold strikes or tracks or fry them off them at any time then they never learn to get better at them. Rig dogs may be born, but I'll take a trained one who's rigged a 1000 tracks over a genetically superior one that's never been allowed to work any. Experience always trumps genetics.
Another rigging tip "IMO" is if you want to keep on having good independent rig dogs even when "Old King Striker" kicks it. Make those young dogs start rigging THEIR OWN TRACKS as early as possible in their life. Let them screw up w/o the old dog to help them. It's a tough choice because your catch % goes down, but in the end it pays off. Don't wait til "Old King Striker " is dead to make the next generation of independent rig dogs.

that last part goes for everything, i've found that out a long time ago, well a long time for me, lost our best dog and had to restart all over again, and finally after five years i'm getting back to where i was, and i have respect for a shocker, accidents are sometimes the best way to learn, and let me tell you number six is no fun at all, i very rarely go above 3, and thats only after they don't stop on a deer run, i don't like shockers at all, would rather not use them if i could, but they will stop a dog, and i'm pretty sure i had a dog go death from one, agian my own fault. now if we start something and have a puppy, the pup goes out after the start dog. and i had one of those born strike dogs, the dog that i think was death, man if i could've broke him off elk he would have been awesome, and was getting there when he died. but our old pepper dog we trained like i said, he was our first dog, and our best, he did alot better job just cause he had experience and i agree you can ruin a dog. but after a few times of rigging in a controled inviroment, and the dogs is getting it down, if you let them rig the trash, wont that ruin a dog to? i'm not talking about severe punishment, but let them no that they did wrong, then when they rig the bear incourge them?