how much trigg???

[grouse]

Instead of mix breeding why not run tree dogs and running dogs togeather ?

[Dads dogboy]

Grouse,

As to your last post, in most Cases running Tree Bred Hounds with Running Bred Hounds would be like running the Kentucky Derby with a Percheron, Quarter Horse, and Secretariat.....where would you want to put your money?

There are some individuals in the Tree Bred Hounds(of any and all Breeds) that if started with Running Hounds early in their Hunting lifes, can and do perform as well as their Runng Bred counterparts.

Generally though in Country where Running Bred Hounds work best, the Fuel tanks on the Tree Bred Hounds is too small for consistant performance!

While there are lines of Running Walkers and July's that do make Tree Dogs, it sounds like the Hunters out West and up North have figured out how to Cross breed Hounds that fit the Country and the Style that is the most productive for them!

CJC

[BEAR HUNTER]

Dads DB. You are right about trying to mix a pack. Generaly what happens is the running dogs take off and leave the tree dog. About 14 yrs ago when I was hunting with a line of super running dogs (3/4-1/2) we had one registered Lipper bred walker that was a super nice dog. She was raised from a pup. She finaly learned she had to shut her mouth and run just to stay in the race. She was good at picking up the loses though.

[catdog360]

When I posted this I wanted to know how much running dog to cross into tree dogs. I think that has been answered. It all depends on the part of the country.

But onto the question. WHY WHY WHY running dogs...................???????

We exported from the east coast two 1/4 Crogan walker 3/4 July. Neither dog could or wouldn't out run our tree dogs. One would tree and bay a bear good the other wouldn't tree or bay at all. And they are huge dogs. Probably only weigh about 70 lbs. but are very tall dogs. Our country is very steep and brushy in most places, so that may have to do with why the Julys can't out run our tree hounds.

If running dogs are so special why aren't we all hunting them?? I don't want to fight on here. I'm just asking. Maybe you can convince me to switch.

[cat and bear]

Catdog, I'm playing with some trigg bloodline, I bred my tree dogs to, also I have a half running walker. Here is my reasons to try it. I'm very satisfied, on speed and heart of my tree dogs. With that being said, its an experiement for me, the trigg bitch isnt faster then my walkers, for the first three hours, on a running bear, she is among them. Then after that she is leading, and my half running walker. They are tough, and can hold a pace like that all day. The second day about the same. The third day, the tree dogs, are sore and tired, but will go, the trigg is ready and willing. The fourth day, the walkers, need a day or two of rest, the trigg, and half running dog, can and will catch game. It seems they are about twice as much endurance as the tree dogs, and i dont care what color the tree dogs are. The other thing, is feet, hair, for this winter weather. I go to other states to play, in different terrain these dogs are use to, like mountains, the dogs are raised in 1200ft, and go to 6000 ft. these dogs a day or two are shot and need rest on fast running game. The running dogs, are ready to go for a few more days. So the hours of driving, expenses, etc, better have some dogs that will stand up the next day. I cant see them replacing my tree dogs, as for bear, the trigg has been banged up, but the tree dogs put the heat to the bear to make it climb, and tree when it does. So, mix and match seems to be a nice combination, at least on fast running game. I love to hit a 75lb bear, just to watch the running dogs work, and see how long its going to take to catch it, most of the time they will. LOL

[catdog360]

Why are we all hunting tree dogs then? Are we just stubern or what. I know a lot of guys around here hunting 1/4 or 1/2 running dogs but they always keep more tree dogs. Just picking everyones brains here...................

[briarpatch]

What I am about to say is GENERALLY speaking and NOT all inclusive. Tree dogs do not have the staying power or track speed of the running dogs. Running dogs are not cold nose start dogs and do not tree. Those are the main differences in a nutshell. You can occasionally find an exception in any of these areas.

briarpatch

[grouse]

Read the coyote section , alot of guy's were telling me their treedogs could keep up to running dogs

[dwalton]

As most of you know I run both Treeing Walkers and part running dog. The running dog in there is not for the speed but for the way they move a track, the product is they move a cold track faster. They teach all the dogs to run up and yes they will do what it takes to stay up there. One of the keys to catching a lot of cats is time and distance, covering the most distance in the least amount of time. That is not speed to me that is the ability to move a track. Dogs can not over run there noise. But if they are smelling the same place twice and barking at it they are wasting time. There are no perfect dogs, to me it is the combination of dogs in your pack that catch a lot of cats. All should be able to tree a cat but outstanding in a field. I have a Leopard that physically can not run with the running dogs but she is there doing what it takes to be in the front or close to it. With the part running dogs it is hard to tell a jump when track picks up a little they run it and it my sound like a jump but it is not it is very hard to tell when they actually jump a track. Dewey

[Mel White]

i will agree with dewey. for me it is defiantely the track style. the way a good one will move an old track and smoke a jumped track.a good one in my opinion will make most "coon dog type cat dogs" look pretty silly on track. mic, pretty much all my dogs for the last ten years or so have had 1/4 to 1/8 running dog in with the walker breeding. mostly older house and loose bruce bred stuff with a little running dog. i also think they cross with your type of walker breeding very well. i have had the coldest nosed dog, best locate and tree dog and best box dogs that i have owned out of those crosses. so they are all not hot nosed, no treeing dogs.i honestly think the pups start earlier and are more no bs pups. they are looking for that track and hunting at a earlier age instead of playing grab ass on the road. i think if you start breeding too much of the running dog ect, you may start pushing those typical faults,weaker tree dogs, hotter nosed ect. most of the ones i have had i would say average around 45 pounds. try one, you might be surprised.

[catdog360]

I think I may be getting more confused lol.... I love what I am hunting, dad has spent over 40 years with this stuff. But he has bred 40 years of bear dogs. I like what I have been breeding for cats but it sounds like they could do better. The guys that hunt with running dogs say nothing compares. The guy that hunt only tree dogs say don't waste your time. I probably won't change a thing. But keep letting us know what you think about this issue. Thanks for the responces. And Dewey nothing came through on the pm maybe you hit the wrong button and didn't mean to send a pm???

[cat and bear]

Catdog there has been a lot of good information shared with you. The other thought of this, is if you try a type of running dog, get it out of oldtime stuff. The dogs today, have been spoiled by pens and breeders. For cold nose etc. They dont want them in pen races, and will culll, or same with treeing. If you find some old stock, you owe it to yourself to give one a try. Dewey is on top of most lines, I'm sure other guys on here, and can tell you where to locate old time stuff. Good luck.

[twist]

Mic, here is my thoughts on this. I am not real up on the running dogs just because I have never been around that many. I am one for speed in a bobcat dod but it can not be (waisted) speed and then at the end of the race that dog must be able to tell me there is a cat treed. Every dog in my pack must be able to tree thier own cat and tell where it is for the exception of a young dog in training. I know alot of the bobcat hunters on here are running a mixed pack with mixed talent and do extremely well and probably a heck of alot better than I do but to me if a dog can not tree, it is not for me I dont care how good it can trail now if a person has a running and it trees that is a plus. later, Andy

[BEAR HUNTER]

Dewey is correct. It's not how fast the dog is running but how fast he moves the track. It's hard to explain unless you get with someone who has good running dogs and go on a hunt. As far as the tree part, thats simple. If it wont tree dont hunt it. Thats why you do your research and get a line that is treeing. I had to start over after selling off everything. I got lucky in that the pups I am training now are super tree dogs. Running dogs have their faults but the crosses will consistantly catch more fox and cat than a straight tree dog.

[Dads dogboy]

Well Folks, this topic has certainly been a good one to bring forth some very good information! Very GOOD Bobcat Hunters have all contributed pertinent Facts and opinions as to what works for them.

Below are several bits that I have pulled forth that Dad wanted to Opine on. Also a question asked in a PM that I feel should be answered here as other folks are probably thinking the same things.

The Question:
Dads dogboy , I respect your answer and agree about the tree dog and running dog combo , but I don't like mixing breeds either . It just seems when a person does that he's taking years and years of developing a breed and just throwing it away, instead of bettering a particular breed . But what are your views on this subject?

As to mixing Breeds for a particular purpose….why not…we see this done all the time with other Livestock. To satisfy a particular need, mixing breeds, to Dad and I is not only acceptable….. but to be encouraged.

Once a Hunter has defined his purpose and evaluated the Country in which he (or she) will be Hunting…identified the traits that a Hound will need to succeed consistently in that Country to fulfill the Hunters purpose; then if that type Hound is not available to purchase, a Breeding or Cross Breeding program is necessary.

We have seen this work very well in Cattle, Hogs, Chickens, & Horses. Just about all types of Livestock use Cross Breeding for a purpose…and do this very successfully.

Some have even carried this a step or two further and have developed New Breeds.

From what we hear Dewey has done this rather successfully with his Bobcat specific Hounds. Also while I have not seen any, we hear that Mike Kemp has developed a particular Cross Breeding program that works well for the Country and the Game that he Hunts. From what I read here and on an African Hunting Forum Roy Sparks and others in S. Africa have developed Crossbred Hounds for particular quarries. Cat and Bear has also developed a Cross Breeding program that produces Bobcat and Bear Hounds that consitantly produce Game.

I know that if a guy wants to mix certain breeds it's their business, but i think it's a set back to that particular breed. Why not take the trait the person wants and breed it in that particular breed

To answer another part of the above question; Life is an evolving time….and that time is rather limited, for all of us and our Hounds….bettering a particular Breed is an admirable quest….however this takes time and many Generations to accomplish. Cross Breeding for a particular purpose, in reality is what most Folks have the time and inclination to do….this is commendable and if carried forward over those above mentioned generations, and with RUTHLESS CULLING….a new Purpose Specific Breed will evolve….ie.Treeing Walkers, Plottts, Goodmans, Hudspeths, etc.


Grouse wrote:
Read the coyote section, a lot of guy's were telling me their treedogs could keep up to running dogs

Grouse keep in mind that we have Folks from all across the Country writing here on BGH…..this is Truly wonderful….however as a rule a Tree Bred Hound can not run with a Running Bred Hound after the Coyote is Jumped….. unless you are in the Snow Country up North. There, in most cases the Purpose is to move the Coyote to the Gun, not run the Coyote to Catch…or so I am told.(we need Mr. Dan Edwards to comment on this)

In the Country where most Hunters are using Running Hounds to successfully Catch Yotes; a Tree Bred Hound would perform like Herbie the VW Bug at the Daytona 500….without the Disney Tricks….not very well!


Catdog360 wrote
When I posted this I wanted to know how much running dog to cross into tree dogs. I think that has been answered. It all depends on the part of the country

Catdog360, we feel that you are Right on with this statement! In different Country different Traits and Styles are necessary for a Hound to succeed. Different Strains of a certain Breed may work better than another. Different Breeds may better fit….different amounts of one Breed or another in a Cross Breeding program may be needed. (also keep in mind that a Certain Hound used in a Cross may have the much desired PREPOTENT thing that allows him to pass on a particular trait that will hold dominance for generations…possibly meaning that very little of a certain Breed or Strain is needed to accomplish the Purpose desired.)

Catdog360 wrote:
The guys that hunt with running dogs say nothing compares. The guy that hunt only tree dogs say don't waste your time. I probably won't change a thing.

Folks always try to take a little time to go Hunt with others who are Successful, Hunting what you do….do not take any Hounds, for no matter how hard you try, the ole Competitive thing will take hold and could cloud your judgement. Go see how another Good Hunter goes about his much loved Sport….there is always something to learn!

Also Change is a Good thing, just like Booze, if taken in Moderation and with much THOUGHT! To not Change is a GOOD way to get run over.

These are the things that Dad and I felt that we might share….did not add much to the great things that others have said…but wanted Folks to know that emulating the Truly successful Hunters/Hound Breeders like Dewey, Mike Kemp, Ron Ison and many others that we do not know is not a bad thing to do.

Fitting a Hound or Hound Type to your Country and Style is much more important then How You Do It!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy