BigGameHoundsmen.com

As always Steve, great side stepping. Why not just fix the problem, Instead of telling guys to just live with it. I think most guys are sick of garmin because they wont listen to our problems and then want to change it around and blame us for their product that is burning up, and should NOT be. Most companies would call that a RECALL, not tell their customers to live with it.
What would be nice is if garmin would tell us that this product has alot of bugs and they made the mistake of releasing it with out testing it and working out the bugs first. And let us know they are working on fixing the the problems. Maybe even coming to us and asking us what the problems we have with their product.
If you call garmin, they have their "I don't give a shit" Atitude and "It's your fault" it's broke. And start the defence stance that you take.
Steve, why don't you and garmin work with us instead of fighting us on the topic so bad? All we ask is garmin work with us so that we all can have the best product out there.
I still invite you out here to do a little test with the astro and dc30's. I think that is the only way you will understand the problems we face. How much does garmin spend sending their employees around the world, selling these things? Why not send a couple of them into the feild with guys that hunt.
I don't ride around in a truck but I don't give shit to those that do. The problem should not be happening, no matter what style of hunting you do.

Why in the world should Garmin recall a product that there is NOTHING wrong with. The problem is the user not Garmin. They built a product that works exactly as designed and exactly as advertised. They choose to use frequencies that were coincidentally near the same frequencies that some hound hunters use. How in the world is that Garmins fault? It’s their product and they choose to built it how they wanted and to meet their goals, which is does. Give me a break, if someone gets an Astro wet and takes it home and puts it in the microwave for 20 minutes to dry it out and it doesn’t work afterward, is it Garmins fault? Should they be chastised because they didn’t build a microwave proof unit? Of course not. How absurd is it to expect Garmin to build a produce that suits just your needs when the goal was to build a tracker for bird dogs.

There are thousands, no tens of thousands of other frequencies that hound hunters could use, but they choose to not change. But somehow can justify that Garmin should change. They are suppose to change and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to recall a replace a product instead of a hound hunter spending a couple hundred bucks to buy a different radio, or spending nothing and simply turning the dial to a different channel. The problem in my opinion is there are too many hound hunters that don’t really understand radios and know how to do something other than talk on what they already have. There are groups of hound hunters around here that have always ran UHF and did long before the Astro was ever invented. This is a completely mute point to them.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Garmin is completely innocent in all of this. I truly believe that there should be a clear warning not to use certain frequencies near an Astro but I get why they don’t do that. There are too many variables to set any specific parameters for what can and can’t be done with RF around Astro’s. I also really think they missed a sizable target market with hound hunters. In my opinion their marketing department failed by not identifying hound hunters as a significant market for this product. But that’s all water under the bridge and dwelling on it is not productive and is not going to help anyone. We all know that Garmin is aware of what is going on and their actions or lack of action speaks clearly that they aren’t going to change the Astro. So it would be far more productive to harness all the energy that is put into whining and complaining into a productive effort to find an aftermarket remedy for the problem. So I guess if you don’t like how Garmin is handling this or how they unit works, then don’t buy one. If you can’t live without it, then learn to use it how it was designed, not how you want it to be designed.

That pretty much goes exactly against every successful business approach I've ever heard. Puck the customers, this is how we made it and that's it we're not going to listen to your concerns or ideas on how to improve. I'm sure that will grow the market.

It goes exactly with a successful business approach. You don’t recall a product because a few people think you should have done something differently. You have to remember that Garmin is a big blip on our radar because they are the only player in the game right now. But hound hunters are a tiny blip on their radar. I’d venture to guess that the Astro makes up less than 1 percent of their sales. Then if you figure out how many Astro user are actually having radio problems compared those that are using it without problem, it’s a fraction of a percent. I bet hound hunters make up less than a quarter of a percent of their business. This doesn’t mean that Garmin shouldn’t listen to their customers. It just means that we don’t amount to nearly as many customers as people seem to think that we do. We think that everyone who buys an Astro has problems with it. But that’s because we are only talking to other hound hunters who are trying to do the same thing with it. The Astro is what it is and we need to accept that. It’s great to give a company feedback and I encourage that. But you can’t expect them to change something just because you want it changed.

We probably are a small blip on their screen. I'm not talking about a recall. I'm talking about what Mr. pacojack was saying, come out, ask the coonhunting and big game houndsmen how can we improve this product for YOU. Then the blip on the screen will get MUCH bigger. I venture to say if they do this and can make improvements they will make telemetry units almost obsolete.

Caincando1, Let me see if I can help you out on this. Garmin built a product to aid us in our hunting, in the way we hunt, as hound hunters, and marketed it as that. We were useing these radios way before garmin even had a thought of doing something like this.... They knew we used radios, nobody kept it a secret about the radios and if they didn't know, then they should have done some research. Bottom line, garmin did not feild test the product and released it knowing there were huge holes in their product. They are now trying to shift the blame on us and say it is our fault that they are burning up.
That is like Chevy coming out with a new electric car and saying " Sorry your car blew up but it is your fault for driving under a power line, dumb ass."
Only diference is garmin has never said sorry.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers but when I used 151 frequency beep beep stuff you had to be careful not to be on the radios while tracking or you would 'burn' the beep beep box up too. Last I knew they hadn't done anything to fix there boxes either, you just have to be careful around them.

Exactly NCB! I have mentioned that many times. I use to use 151. Had many problems with other hunters and myself. Even Tracker asked what the heck id did to it.

First the Garmin was not marketed to hound hunters. It was marketed to bird hunters, then adapted by hound hunter.

Garmin, knows that the hound hunters are there biggest market for this thing. You cna't really believe they have done nothing to improve the units. They have, and are continuing to work on them. You really cannot expect to use the same channels. Without doing some damage to a sensitive receiver. You alos cannot expect a company to make a product to acomadate people who are breaking the law. Which has been the case in a lot of the problems. Even on the same channels that the Garmin uses the law only allows 2 watts of power to be used. The law does not allow the use of marine band radios on land. Then to use radios that go over the power limit there as well. Even with private channels that are close to the murs channels. Folks still use more power than allowed.

So how are they supposed to improve them??? Range- well I can only beat that horse so many times!! Burning due to illegal radio use- Well they have shielded them more, but really what are they to do? Durability? Seem pretty stought to me. Other than the antenna connector which pretty much has been a radio industry standard. at least from how it is connected to the board.

Garmin is listening, and working on them. They have contacted some of us now for input on how to make these better. Still it is going to take time to implement changes that are going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars!!!

A lot of the newest problems have been software glitches. All software has these problems. When an update becomes available one needs to update them. Many do not do this. Microsoft has updates almost daily. Most virus software is updated at least weekly. Not many do these updates. Even forums like this need to be updated from time to time.

EDIT It looks like I was typing while Steve was posting. I wrote a lot of this before I saw his post but it look like a lot of the same thoughts.

I agree with you guys 100% that Garmin missed a sizable market with hound hunters. My thoughts are they either completely missed this segment when they did their market research or they identified it and felt that it was not a large enough market. Hound hunting isn’t exactly as “main stream” as bird hunting. I’d venture to guess that there are far more bird hunters and bird dogs than hound hunters in the US. Plus I would venture to guess that they are far easier to identify because bird dogs are far more public than hound hunting. So possibly at no fault of their own, they may have missed this segment of the market simply because they were not easily able to identify it. Now that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have done a little more leg work and get to know the needs of hound hunters. Because I know there are plenty of guys who would have jumped at the opportunity to give them all the information they could to help in the aid of developing this product.

Let’s also look at this from Garmin’s side. They opted to use MURS frequencies which are restricted by federal law to only 2 watts. http://home.provide.net/~prsg/murs_faq.htm So theoretically when they built the Astro nobody should have ever been able to transmit on the same frequencies at more than 2 watts. Also in their research they probably identified other forms of RF communication that could potentially interfere with their products. They would have found that marine band VHF radio would transmit near the MURS frequencies. They then examined the laws pertaining to marine band radios and determine that in accordance to the law, people using marine band will probably not interfere with their product. The other source of RF interference would come from licensed HAM radio operators who are licensed to communicate at RF’s near the MURS channels. Again they probably identified that this would not be a problem because the odds of a licensed HAM radio operator transmitting in a very close proximity to their product was very slim. So they probably did their homework but over looked one small segment of people that didn’t fit into either of the two identified interference sources.

It was stated that hound hunters have been using radio long before Garmin developed the Astro and this is very true. However how many are using those radios in accordance to the law? I know there are guys who are licensed and doing everything legally. But I also know that there are a lot of guys using marine radios outside the parameters of the law. This is the same for HAM radios and frequencies that the FCC requires a license to use. I know there are some general use frequencies, but I’d venture to guess a lot of guys are not using their VHF radios legally. So how was Garmin suppose to identify a potential problem from people who are doing an illegal activity? Plus once it was brought to their attention, were they suppose to change their product because people are doing and illegal activity that harms their product.

Look at it this way. What if Garmin built a turn by turn GPS navigation for cars and marketed it to the US population. But this unit was only designed to be used up to 85mph. They identified that this product would probably not be used above this speed because it is illegal to drive that fast in this country. But let’s say this unit did something that no other unit on the market did and was a very popular gadget for speeders. Now these speeders start using this unit above 85mph and find that speeds that high wreck the unit. So they start sending them back to Garmin and giving them feedback. They are telling Garmin that they as a group are breaking the law by speeding and they don’t like that their product stops working because of it. They tell Garmin that they want them to redesign their product to work how the illegal speeders want to use them. Should they expect Garmin to identify them as a potential customer and change their product to suit their need because they have been speeding long before Garmin developed this unit? I didn’t think so.

I know that seems like an absurd story. But the goal is to get people to look at this from the other side. Like I said, I know there are guys that are using radios legally. But I’m curious how many of the guy’s biatching about this are using radios legally? Think about it; you want Garmin to come ask you what you want in a product. Because that’s the only way they will find out that what you are doing is illegal and they would need to change how they make the unit because of it. Because after all, if we were all legally using radios; Garmin would probably have identified this in their research.

It’s been stated before that Garmin designed the Astro for the bird dog market so maybe they didn’t do any research into the hound market and I’m way off base. Either way they have not taken any steps to remedy that problem that hound hunters are having. My guess is this is because of one of two possibilities. Firstly perhaps the “fix” isn’t cheap and/or easy enough to justify it. Secondly maybe it’s just not a big enough priority to them. My guess is it’s the second one. We feel that this is a big priority to us because they are the only units on the market and we don’t want to use different radio frequencies. But I bet they don’t feel that it’s that big of a priority to change their product to accommodate a small amount of customers who coincidentally are doing something that is damaging the unit. It’s just part of business and I guarantee that if MURS Channels were not near marine bands we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Let’s face it though if you are not having problems you defend their actions. And say we are the ones that should change the way we hunt. There are usually around 20 in a hunt group at around $300 radio (including purchasing and mounting) that is a lot to change just because Garmin made a device that will not work with an already legal device that is directly connected to their major market (Hound Hunters).
Here in Florida most hunt deer or hogs with dogs and communicate via some type of truck mounted radio.

We all agree they are great and i would not want to be with out one but those of us having problems try to ask for relief and help. Most of us are even willing to pay for an aftermarket fix. But there appears to be nothing they can do i have looked and spoke to everyone
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I turn mine off when the dogs jump and only turn it back on if they get out of hearing but with about a mile of range sometimes they are out of hearing range and out of Garmin range when I need it.
In short I notice if you have problems you are not happy and wish for some change. And if you haven’t had trouble you defend the Garmin and put the blame on how we use them. I bet the defenders tune would change if they were in our shoes with damaged equipment, and the headaches of sending a unit back in the middle of your vaccation

I can see both sides of this deal. I've had problems with mine and also used it plenty to really appreciate what it can do. I've had to sit on the phone for hours and get a return authorization and also done one in a couple minutes.

What we all want and what is possible are two different things. I wouldn't run down the only game in town because it's not flawless. If there are too many bugs for you, wait until it all get resolved. Personally, I'm going to use this version with all it's shortcomings until something better comes along.

I'm sure Garmin prioritizes it's products by what makes it money. There is no doubt in my mind that we are WAY down that list. The 220 is just a modified garmin 60. We are a tiny drop in the bucket for their revenue. Pretty sure if all Astro sales went away, they'd hardly notice it on their bottom line.

Nolte wrote: Pretty sure if all Astro sales went away, they'd hardly notice it on their bottom line.

They would probably be happy since I'm sure this product is probably a large expense for their Warranty repair. For as many that go out and come back for repair they've got two options.

Try to fix it so they don't have as many repairs (hard to do),

or look at the numbers and Figure it's not worth it for them and Drop the product line.

Doghunter, how are you using you radio legally? I’m not saying that you aren’t I’m truly curious what you guys are doing to make it legal.

As for the comments about defending Garmin. Well I can tell you that they are and will be big inconvenience to us personally and the group that we hunt with. That is the reason why we didn’t buy them years ago. We’ve all be waiting and hoping that Garmin did something to remedy the situation. Finally we decided that it’s time for us to change and adapt to using the Garmin, because after all, there is nothing wrong with the product. Our entire group all use VHF radio and use RF that are very close to the MURS channels. Other than my dad who has been a licensed HAM for 30 plus years, the rest are all illegally using VHF frequencies. Even though my dad is licensed a lot of what he does he shouldn’t be doing also.

My dad was the hardest one to get to change. He’s working on his extra class license which is the highest licensing you can get. So he takes this stuff very seriously.
He’s old school and like big power on his radios. He run near a 1000 watts on his home stations and is in the process of buying a bigger amp to get him to the 1499 watt legal FCC limit. He’s been know to run 80 to 150 watts out of his VHF mobile in his truck. Every body coyote hunting in the surrounding counties always know when we have a race going because they can hear my dad 20 miles away. Hahahaha Now he’s taken the amp out of the truck and is turning his mobile to low power.

It will be an even bigger inconvenience to him because he provides a lot of the group with radios, equipment and help. So that will mean that he will have to help everyone change equipment or reprogram radio to different frequencies. Right now he’s buying and experimenting with dual band VHF/UHF radios. If running UHF works out for us, we’ll probably end up switching everyone over after we replace both our mobiles and a bunch of handhelds of our own.

So as you can see it’s a big inconvenience, yet we have decided to do it. We just bought an Astro and collars and haven’t even hunted with them yet. We are well aware of their limitation around VHF radios. We are taking the necessary steps to ensure that our Astro isn’t damaged. That doesn’t mean that is won’t accidentally happen. If it does we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

I’ll reiterate again, that I am glad people are giving their feedback to Garmin. I’m also glad to read Steve’s post acknowledging that Garmin is listening to the feedback. That’s fabulous news! But it still doesn’t change the fact that the current units have limitation.

I believe an aftermarket solution would be a big seller. I’m sure it’s available, but as I’ve said before, it seems like people focus their energy at Garmin wanting them to do something or else at complaining about it. Instead take that energy and start educating ourselves and researching solutions. From reading some other post, it sounds like solutions have been found; we just need to get the solutions into a public forum so everyone can do them.

To get this back on topic lets talk about some aftermarket solutions. I’m just talking out loud here. I haven’t look to see if a product like this exists. I’m envisioning a micro receiver, processor and transmitter in one small unit. The unit would receive the RF and be able to hand the power put out by the radios we use. Then the processor would only send the signal that it was programmed for to the transmitter. Then the transmitter would transmit the RF at a low wattage, something like 5watts. This would basically be a mini repeater that goes in line on the coax. The unit could be programmed to only repeat the MURS channels that the Astro uses and nothing else. It would need to have a pretty tight receiver to restrict splatter (bleed over) from frequencies that are close the Astro channels. But even if a small amount of splatter was rebroadcast it would only be at 5 watts which shouldn’t cause any problems to the Astro. This unit would probably have to be powered by either being hard wire to 12volts or have batteries in it. Again just talking out loud here and I’m no expert.

First of all murs band is legal to use period. I do have a radio I that uses 2 watts but the people running car mounted Motorola radios pushing 15 watts have a license to use them with their peanut farm and when they get close and key their mic it’s the end of your unit. Nothing you can do. Or how about when you are parked at the Wal-Mart and a local EMS is talking on their MURS radio next to your car while you are shopping. I am not talking Marine radios. I am talking MURS one of the frec I am aware of is 151.595