BigGameHoundsmen.com

ok hybrid vigor has to be two be to unrelated species a tiger to a lion or a donkey and horse or a wolf to a dog that is hybrid vigor if you cant take two of ya same colored dogs and breed them and have most of them make tree dogs ya breed you have has been doing this for 200 years the genes are tight and should reproduce tree dogs not a litter of culls now when you breed a hound of one color breed to a hound of another color breed the genetic get looser and you get dogs less like the parents if you are doin this this might be because you see what you want to see genes are genes in reality you are genetic worst off but if you have hybrid vigor ok
when i got into dogs 25 years ago the first thing i did was read all day for days about genetics i will only buy a dog that is line breed
some thing is wrong here i read about whole litters bein culled half a litter bein culled i got no problem with what anyone does with there litters etc just that i have seen whole litters all over 10 years old all are start dogs cold nosed fast there pups all make it to a tree they have been breed a few times line breed no papers etc
now i dont want to arguee you guys are right ya might be makin better dogs i dont want any play nice now fellas

lifreediver wrote:ok hybrid vigor has to be two be to unrelated species a tiger to a lion or a donkey and horse or a wolf to a dog that is hybrid vigor if you cant take two of ya same colored dogs and breed them and have most of them make tree dogs ya breed you have has been doing this for 200 years the genes are tight and should reproduce tree dogs not a litter of culls now when you breed a hound of one color breed to a hound of another color breed the genetic get looser and you get dogs less like the parents if you are doin this this might be because you see what you want to see genes are genes in reality you are genetic worst off but if you have hybrid vigor ok
when i got into dogs 25 years ago the first thing i did was read all day for days about genetics i will only buy a dog that is line breed
some thing is wrong here i read about whole litters bein culled half a litter bein culled i got no problem with what anyone does with there litters etc just that i have seen whole litters all over 10 years old all are start dogs cold nosed fast there pups all make it to a tree they have been breed a few times line breed no papers etc
now i dont want to arguee you guys are right ya might be makin better dogs i dont want any play nice now fellas

ha ha!!! you said it I WAS THINKING IT good luck catch ya later

"Hybrid vigor is something to breed for"


Ages ago, I was taught that the two animals were considered the same species if “if they can mate and the offspring is fertile.” So, not just mate — the product must be able to continue a line. I assumed that hybrids were generally sterile. (mule, beefalo, ect.)

You may be right on hybrid vigor, but if you line or inbreed you lose size of dog,lose hair and seem to lose health. If you breed two dogs of different types you don't see these problems. There is a place for both it depends on what you are tiring to accomplish. It takes a long time and someone that understands what they want to create a type of hound for a purpose. That dog maybe good at other things also but he should be limited to what you are breeding for. I don't know much when it comes to breeding but because of age and being able to spend a lot of my life hunting hounds with top houndmen I have my opinions right or wrong until someone shows me something else. I have yet to see a person that I could not learn from. I spent a little time with Dale Lee in his latter years, I thought he was a opinionated person but he had been there done that. I did not always agree with him but he made me think and as time went on he got smarter. [As we get older the less we know and the smarter we get.] A lot of good question came up on this forum, that's a good thing. According to Webster, Hybrid anything of mixed origin. The offspring of two animals or plants of different species. Species.... a single, distinct kind of plant or animal, having certain distinguishing characteristics. WE can make it mean what we want and we do. Types of dogs and breeding dogs is fun because of so many different opinions and uses. Each to his on. Dewey

This is what I have learned about the word "hybrid"... It is just a fancy word for MUTT!!! Stop fooling yourself into believing you have a high dollar dog because you crossed two high dollar breeds. A MUTT IS A MUTT IS A MUTT IS A MUTT! If its not PURE, its a mutt... Thats not to say it cant be a really good dog, but, bottom line is that its a MUTT! As far as color goes, COLOR IS JUST COLOR! It sounds to me that SOME of you need to take a couple biology classes. Just because I have the same color eyes or hair as my father, doesnt mean I am just like my father. Dogs are no different.

dewey, you are wright about certain bad traits jumping up when line breeding. but it is because we double and triple up on everything good and bad. on out crosses none of the problems go away we just delute them so much the genes have less chance of matching each other. but this is true of the traits we are looking for also. when we do line breed or in breed we are supose to cull the defects. and more times than not the human factor interfears with this part of the program. just look at wild life, it is the best example they breed anything in their family and if there is defects they die. no one is there nurse them. but mostly i agree with you that it is fun and none of us will have all the answers but that is what makes us keep trying.

good luck and talk again!!

Lyinhunter,

I thought "grade" was the fancy word for mutt. I think the point here is sometimes traits that we want run hand in hand with color. May not always be true but certain traits are carried along with others. Something that could be learned in a biology class.

When I think of mutts, I think of the Spaniel/Poodle my parents got me from the side walk in front of Safeway when I was a little kid. Which by the way was the smartest dog I think I have ever been around. Healthy as a horse too, lived to be 22 years old. Don't think he would have caught many cats though.

I have noticed that dogs with new blood in the cross seem to last longer and stay a little healthier than a lot of the line breed dogs. It does not make them a high dollar dog, I am not sure where that came from.

Color is an outwardly expressed gene or trait and one we can most easily predict and why breed standards were set among these different hound breeds. The beagle is the only hound type that accepts as its standard that a beagle can be registered as beagle as long as it is one of the true hound colors meaning you can cross a black and tan beagle with a blue tick beagle and still register the dog. The rest of the large hound breeds are classified out among their color red bone, blue tick black and tan, etc… Color is a hard one to get past and I am with Dewey. I tend to pick the pups I keep out of my crosses based a lot on color. To some it is not that important but, I am a bit anal and like uniformity. That being said, color has nothing to do with performance. A person can set out to learn as much as he or she can about genetics, most of us on here have been through junior and senior high school science and have a basic knowledge and understanding of genetics but that’s all it is. Hell scientist can’t figure out retardation in humans yet Down syndrome is traced to extra chromosome. There is far more to breeding for performance than we will ever know. A person has to strive for the best, keep good records’ and partner up with like minded people as well as cull hard put your hard work into the hands of those that will get the most out of them and except criticism with an open mind.

sourdough

sourdough wrote:Color is an outwardly expressed gene or trait and one we can most easily predict and why breed standards were set among these different hound breeds. The beagle is the only hound type that accepts as its standard that a beagle can be registered as beagle as long as it is one of the true hound colors meaning you can cross a black and tan beagle with a blue tick beagle and still register the dog. The rest of the large hound breeds are classified out among their color red bone, blue tick black and tan, etc… Color is a hard one to get past and I am with Dewey. I tend to pick the pups I keep out of my crosses based a lot on color. To some it is not that important but, I am a bit anal and like uniformity. That being said, color has nothing to do with performance. A person can set out to learn as much as he or she can about genetics, most of us on here have been through junior and senior high school science and have a basic knowledge and understanding of genetics but that’s all it is. Hell scientist can’t figure out retardation in humans yet Down syndrome is traced to extra chromosome. There is far more to breeding for performance than we will ever know. A person has to strive for the best, keep good records’ and partner up with like minded people as well as cull hard put your hard work into the hands of those that will get the most out of them and except criticism with an open mind.


sourdough

pretty much agree with most said. but unless i have been away and things have changed the english hounds are just that english hounds. they are not english redticks. acording to the breed standard they pretty much can look like 8 gallons of different paint fell off the shelf and mixed together. that is what i always thought may have made them acut above the rest. because they didn't care about color. but give ukc and akc time along with people that are color crazy and they will have them screwed up to. it is ok to be color crazy as long as you are also talent crazy also. but that is not how this tends to play out. good luck and take care!

And for some science on the subject...............

http://spear-barkennels.com/Genetics.php


Of course, color is but only one trait amongst many traits.

Spokerider wrote:And for some science on the subject...............

http://spear-barkennels.com/Genetics.php


Of course, color is but only one trait amongst many traits.

and that folks is only a very basic and elementary explanation of genetics. maybe we should talk some computer literate individual into typing up a similar but more in depth page for biggamehoundsmen to ward off some of the more asinine theories on genetics that seem to thrive in some parts of the hound community.
I think dividing hounds into breeds by color was a poor idea. dividing them into specific uses and traits required for those uses would have done more for the breeds. as for physical appearance and some traits being linked it is true that some visual traits are linked to some behavioral traits in some breeds and strains.
color maybe one of those linked physical traits in some instances but for the greater part it isn't so. often when people see a difference in dogs of different colors it has to do with where the color came from. ie. white German shepherds had different blood brought in to bring the color. or a chocolate lab is no different then it's black or yellow litter mate in well bred litters. what about fur or hair density differences in siblings when the pigmentation is different? I guess it comes down to this for me if a hound looks like ol' spectacular i HOPE he turns out like spec but don't expect it. however if your using a strict line breeding program and a color pattern appears over time and becomes predominant due to the superior individuals happening to be of that coloration the chances of the next good pup being that color go up considerably. it doesn't mean you can drive to Michigan and pick up a totally unrelated pup that is similarly colored and expect it to exhibit the same traits.

pegleg wrote:

Spokerider wrote:And for some science on the subject...............

http://spear-barkennels.com/Genetics.php


Of course, color is but only one trait amongst many traits.

and that folks is only a very basic and elementary explanation of genetics. maybe we should talk some computer literate individual into typing up a similar but more in depth page for biggamehoundsmen to ward off some of the more asinine theories on genetics that seem to thrive in some parts of the hound community.
I think dividing hounds into breeds by color was a poor idea. dividing them into specific uses and traits required for those uses would have done more for the breeds. as for physical appearance and some traits being linked it is true that some visual traits are linked to some behavioral traits in some breeds and strains.
color maybe one of those linked physical traits in some instances but for the greater part it isn't so. often when people see a difference in dogs of different colors it has to do with where the color came from. ie. white German shepherds had different blood brought in to bring the color. or a chocolate lab is no different then it's black or yellow litter mate in well bred litters. what about fur or hair density differences in siblings when the pigmentation is different? I guess it comes down to this for me if a hound looks like ol' spectacular i HOPE he turns out like spec but don't expect it. however if your using a strict line breeding program and a color pattern appears over time and becomes predominant due to the superior individuals happening to be of that coloration the chances of the next good pup being that color go up considerably. it doesn't mean you can drive to Michigan and pick up a totally unrelated pup that is similarly colored and expect it to exhibit the same traits.

I agree.

If we read the link above and see that there are 39 matched pairs of chromosomes in a dog`s genotype, and understand how they came to be, we can see that the opportunities to mix chromosomes from past breedings is almost endless, and why a dogs genetic traits are for the most part, made up of the LAST THREE GENERATIONS. Old genes from generations ago are interesting and noteworthy to have on paper, but in reality, it has very little if any influence on a dogs genetic traits. Quite simply, it`s jut too watered down.

Breed the best to the best..........

The bird dog breeders had this figured out long ago. As for us houndsmen.....well we`re working on it .

Ever wonder why and how siblings from the same litter can me so markedly different from each other, yet having come from the same parents? Why do some pups in a litter excell yet other do not?

Here`s why...........

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/254 ... -video.htm

Remember, this works for EACH trait, and of course, science does not know which chromosomes are responsible for which traits, so the prospect of manipulating the genes is poor at best.

As you can see, breeding two duds results in a litter of duds. Breed an outstanding dog to a so-so, and you`ll get a combo of both within the litter. Breed two outstanding dogs together and well, you get the picture.