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Cobalt, I'm not sure what breed, or strain you have. I'm speaking in general, some parts of wi is thicker then others, go a hour either side of me, its a hell of a lot more open and easier to hunt,ask dads dog boy, he was here this summer, with that being said, we got some camphouse plott mixed in with our lines, and work well, as everyone knows, they came from washington. WI is filled with the famous west bam bam dogs, which has made some great fertalizer. I've tried three nance dogs, which simply doesnt cut the grade here. Western WI, they may. A buddy of mine bought a trained bear dog from Jeff, and put his name on him. A week in Maine, and thick country,recently, the dog isn't worth feeding. I know Jeff wouldnt steer him wrong, different terrain. Van comes back here, and cant catch a bear for two weeks with his dogs, different terrain, after that he can start to catch bear. I did get a dog off van, which had enough grit, but took a year and a half of hard hunting to really say a wi bear dog. Give van a call, he will tell you buy a dog from wi or mi you can take it anywhere. I've sold several dogs in the east, our terrain is similiar, the dogs work for those folks. Got a buddy from Florida which comes up here, his dogs catches bear, same thick stuff, we breed for. I've been doing this 35 years, going to take more convincing for me to buy it

cat and bear, you're contradicting yourself with Van's dogs and you're missing the point with what I'm saying(good dogs are good dogs[even in the toughest parts of Wi.] and they can be found anywhere in the US), but that's OK because it's good to know there is someone out there with the best dogs in the country that lives in the hardest hunting conditions in the country and everything else will fall short.

I have bought dogs from other parts of the country and tried them in the Coastal NW. If given time they seem to adapt but won't always be very successful. My point is you can take a finished dog from one region and it stands a good chance of being worthless when you get it home. Biggest problem is the brush. If you want a good laugh watch a dog that was born and raised in open country try to run in the thick stuff for the first time. They come out scratched up, beaten down, and wondering what the hell just happened. But if they have enough heart and desire they begin to figure out what it takes. No matter how successful the hunter, I have a hard time spending big money for a finished dog that wasn't raised where I plan to do a majority of my hunting. I would buy good pups from any where.

Ron i agree. i think i have gotten mine young enough for them to adjust. you can tell that dog of budds is bear crazy. he ran and treed for me but never was caught in the thick stuff. i am sure he was in the open country out there. hopefully budd gives him the chance. i would because i hunted the dog 2 times and saw how crazy he is for bear. i think he will adjust and figure it out. you are right though some dogs dont cut it in the thick stuff here. some will adjust and it took mine a time or two to figure out the water and brush.

cobalt wrote:cat and bear, you're contradicting yourself with Van's dogs and you're missing the point with what I'm saying(good dogs are good dogs[even in the toughest parts of Wi.] and they can be found anywhere in the US), but that's OK because it's good to know there is someone out there with the best dogs in the country that lives in the hardest hunting conditions in the country and everything else will fall short.

I wrote a nice letter to share experiences with, I then trashed it, I do have good dogs, like several hunters in WI does, this is pure bear country. And some dam good dogs, owned by several good hunters here, of which i would be proud to own, the rest, well cobalt, your not worthy of sharing any wisdom or experience with, seems you know it all, dont got time for guys like you, LOL

cat and bear wrote:, same thick stuff, we breed for.

Could you elaborate on that statement?How do you breed for thick stuff ? I'm guessing that you must mean that you breed dogs that work well in thick stuff ? Is it possible that any well bred dog(such as Van's) placed in that environment from birth would have an equally as good chance of making a dog worth feeding?Is the ability to handle thick stuff a genetic trait or a learned behavior ?

Pups that are raised in the area that you hunt is a good thing. Bringing a trained or mature dog into a totally different habitat is a different thing. They may do well or not. Some dogs have trouble with a lot of thick brush[ brush you can not walk through] that have not been raised with it. Mine have trouble in open country, they will over run a track to much for me. It does not make them any better or worst, it is just whats so. Dewey

George Streepy wrote:I have bought dogs from other parts of the country and tried them in the Coastal NW. If given time they seem to adapt but won't always be very successful. My point is you can take a finished dog from one region and it stands a good chance of being worthless when you get it home. Biggest problem is the brush. If you want a good laugh watch a dog that was born and raised in open country try to run in the thick stuff for the first time. They come out scratched up, beaten down, and wondering what the hell just happened. But if they have enough heart and desire they begin to figure out what it takes. No matter how successful the hunter, I have a hard time spending big money for a finished dog that wasn't raised where I plan to do a majority of my hunting. I would buy good pups from any where.

+1

cobalt wrote:My opinion on this is different. I know of many dogs from the Eastern US that do great all over the west. I know dogs from the SW US that do great in No. midwest. I know dogs from Texas doing great in NW US. I know of several dogs from Idaho that kick ass in the driest parts of the SW. I also know dogs that are from the Southwest that do crappy in the Southwest! I don't think dogs are necessarily climate and geographically specific to any one area. I think where a pup is born is less important than where it grows up. I do think a dog who is hunted in one area of the world will have problems relocating to a different climate and geography. Good prospects do good wherever you find them. I think the type of dog eg: build, track style, locate, speed, foot toughness, nose and other genetic factors are of much more concern in buying a pup than where they come from and there is always a risk in buying any puppy.

wow!!! don't think anything else needs said, perfect!!

houndnem wrote:my theory is that if you want a dog that will do well in your conditions buy one that is raised and hunted there. I would not come to michigan to get a western dryground lionhound. I would go to the western dryground guys and get one. I have seen dogs that would put up game like crazy in idaho that couldn't catch a cold down here.(just an example). I certainly don't want to discourage you from buying from jeff because his dogs are exellent, but find out if anyone else has done it with great success before you do. that is just my opinion, I may be way wrong. I have never hunted dogs back east.

i guess i have to disagree with you here houndnem. my two best dogs came from new mexico, dry ground dogs, and have excelled here in idaho, where it is thick as hell. matter of fact i have witnessed them out perform any of my dogs that were born and raised here as well as any other dogs that i have personally been arround that are from this area. they have adapted amazingly well. if i was to buy any more dogs i would not hesitate in the least bit about buying more dogs from new mexico, as a matter of fact that is where they would come from. seems to me that you are interested in them new mexico dogs also. you told me that you trained and sold started dogs to people like me, so why are you wanting to send some dogs to Bency? besides idaho borders utah so what makes you think dogs from idaho wont do as good in utah as they do in idaho? i have a dog from utah, does alright but is no allstar by any means.

Ferjr, Idaho is not thick as hell. Thats open country. You may get some thick stuff but it doesn't compare in my opinion. You get in some of the coastal or wetter regions the brush is so thick the only person that has stepped there in the past hundred years is some dummy chasing dogs. Take a walk into some of the nasty drainages on the coast and you will be missing Idaho for sure.

george, apparently you have never hunted in clearwater county! i grew up in the coastal regons of washington, and there is no comparison to where i hunt. tell me what part of this is open. it is thick and steep as hell here. that is why i dont like small dogs, i have a couple and they seem to get hung up in this thick stuff. my big dogs run through it like elk, they bust right through this thick stuff. that is why del cameron bred bigger dogs, he hunted this same area.

Timber isn't thick. Funny how most the guys I hunted with didn't like Cameron dogs for their size. To big to get through the brush. It isn't timber that makes something tough to get through it is brush. I have been all over Idaho and although there are some thick spots it is nothing like Western Wa or Western Oregon. It doesn't compare. You would have a lot better luck with a NM dog in Idaho than Western Oregon. I am not trying to deminish the difficulty in catching game in Idaho or anywhere else for that matter. Every region has its challenge for sure. But when talking the challenge of brush, Idaho doesn't come close. The game your chasing through brush would make a difference also.

that is interesting george, because i have some smaller dogs and when we get in the thick grown up under brush, i have actually had to go get them when my bigger dogs have left them. they do alright in the more open stuff but in the rugged thick brush they just dont hang. i hear alot of arguements on this but i am just stateing what i have seen. also i hear a lot of supossedly experts on this subject, but i guess these experts are smarter than Mr. Cameron, who is a legend at this, has wrote books on it and is selling pups for over $1000 a peice, i guess that is why they are talking smack and this man has made a living at it, and all these supposed self proclaimed experts have never been heard of. besides george, all you can chase in wasington is cats and coons, that hardly offers the same kind of chase as a bear here in idaho.

cat and bear wrote:
, same thick stuff, we breed for.

i think what Ron is talking about is breeding dogs that can handle the thick brush in certain areas meaning plenty of grit to want to be in the brush with the bear and not skirting around the bear. the ability to spin and get away in the thick brush in a ground fight. the ability to put just enough pressure on the bear without being able to see the bear 100% of the time to hopefully make it climb. if anyone is second guessing Ron's experience and knowledge of making bear dogs i think you better rethink your argument. everyone has had some good points on this subject of whether or not Jeff Allen Bred pups work in this country. i have tried them personally and had good luck. a buddy of mine (the same one Ron was talking about) got a male from Jeff and Jeff swore up and down that dog would work a bear real good. the dog might have done that out there but he hasn't so far here. i think he is adjusting to it but it might take him a little bit. i trust and believe Jeff 100% because everything i have gotten from him has been honest and accurate. i wouldn't hesitate getting one from Ron either.