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Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:33 pm
by Spokerider
Ankle Express wrote:Brent, that is a twisted gut in my opinion. Not all twists are the same but the result usually is. The stomach lining dies during a twist due to lack of mainly oxygen and blood. This can take anywhere from an hour to several hours for the stomach lining to die off. Hence the reason some dogs are diagnosed and possibly even saved. A severe one will only take a couple hours tops. In the mean time gasses are building from the feed or water or both that the stomach is trying to digest. Once the stomach lining gets to a point it loses its expandability and actually may begin to dissolve but at that point and along with the gas pressure, the stomach will rupture between the twists. Its over at that point. The gasses will release, the contents of the stomach are released. Visually if you didn't see your dog bloated (the term for the swelling after the twist and gasses are building) and found them dead you really wouldn't see anything out of sorts much. An autopsy would then reveal the twist. Lots of dogs die from this. Way more than get the credit for it. Typically they are just found dead.
Knowing the breed of dog B&T and their typical build they are highly succeptible. Deep chest and long bodies. The thought is there has to be enough room for the gut to twist. Typically on these first day out type of deals in the big dogs the blood vessels that supply blood and oxygen to the stomach are already strained. They stretch from the bouncing around. Stomach isn't tight to the spine like an in shape hunted dog would be. We have all seen this, example- just a little water or feed in an out of shape dog and they look somewhat pot bellied or sway backed. Their stomach is dropping low. So what happened was the stomach wasn't digesting at full speed like normal because the area around the strained blood vessels isn't working at full capacity. Digestion is slowed or put on hold there. The gasses begin to build at that point. It swells the stomach. Its believed the gases will then flip the stomach and completely sever the blood vessels feeding it causing it to die off. We all have gutted critters. Once you get by the diaphram in anything you can basically pull the stomach free from the spine. That little bit of stuff connecting the stomach cavity to the spine is the blood vessels that supply the blood and oxygen to that stomach. Its not much. Unfortunately roading is not complete conditioning. Over rocks, boulders, logs and under much of the same is more of the real deal. Treeing takes a lot from a dog. Just the barking for an extended period will spend a lot. As well as help strain those blood vessels feeding the stomach. We’ve all seen sore dogs from treeing, right? Hunting in other words is the only complete conditioning. Sometimes the dog is truly spent and the thought is electolytes are spent as well. Thus causing the same slowed digestion and same process. Usually the gas has to be present and enough room to let it all roll over. Always exceptions to the rules as well. I’ve buried some great dogs over this. When in doubt withhold feed and give very little water. Let the dog completely recover. Then bring them back slow. Some believe its just the dog and will eventually happen. IDK. Its real and it happens though. Real sorry for the guys loss.
Yep, you nailed it.......
Something I`d like to add is, kibble takes a long time for the dog to digest and for the stomach to empty, as in hours. way longer than a BARF meal would take to empty. For this reason, my dogs who eat kibble do not get any food the morning of the hunt. They will get fed hours after the exercise, in two smaller meals, even if it means spacing the meals out by only a few hours. Day to day feeding is always two smaller meals, morning and evening.
As ankle express explained, twisted gut, or tosion, is a by-product of the canine barrell -chested anatomy and a full stomach of food. Add vigorus activity to the mix and the risk for torsion goes up exponentially. Hounds are in the susceptible breed catagory. All we can do is minimize the risk factors.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:24 pm
by twist
Been feeding them for years after hunting and have had good luck. May be an hour and may be 3 hours before they get feed after the hunt just depends on how far I am from the house. Water is a big factor alot of the times in cold weather they wont drink, do as one of the other post said pour warm water over thier feed is a good way to keep water in thier sysem.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:49 am
by Melanie Hampton
This is how I feed in the in the winter.. Don't know if it is right or wrong, but it makes sense in my mind..
I feed twice a day.. I add warm water to their food when they eat.. That way I can keep track of the water they are for sure getting.. I make sure ice on water buckets are broken etc, but my dogs are all out in the yard so I don't know who is doing all the drinking..
When hunting them, if it is going to be a while, I SOAK one cup of food before I hunt and feed them.. But I want a few hours before they are turned out.. If not, they get a "snack" which is usually a hotdog or lunchmeat or sometime I even splurge on some of those fancy dog treats
I take water and a bucket.. Every time I stop and need a drink I offer one to the dogs.. Yeah, its probably overkill, but if I'm thirsty, why wouldn't they be.. I have one of those little collapsable bowls.. You might laugh but I put it in my pack, where I carry a bottle of water for me.. I water dogs on the way out from every tree and they are normally thirsty by then..
When I get home, they do not get a full ration at once.. I again SOAK their food until it is mushy.. Feed them and then go back out in about 3 to 4 hours and feed them the rest of their food soaked down again..
It might be needless.. Maybe they don't need the soaked food.. But they like it and it eases my mind..
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:16 am
by Redwood Coonhounds
I feed mine twice a day. Summer time its at 7am and 7pm. While its cool out. In the winter when it gets dark quicker I feed at 7am and about 5pm. I put warm water in the food and make it like cereal, so that I know they are getting water. I also take and extra bucket out in the morning full of hot water and pour it in the buckets after I get the ice out, makes the water a little less chilly and they usually go get a drink after eating.
I usually feed mine before taking them to events or coon hunting. I don't usually at the first part of bear season when it's hot out and we get up early. But around this time a year when we don't leave the house until about 9, I get up like normal and feed them at 7.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:58 am
by 007pennpal
Good stuff. I'm questioning not offering unlimited water after excersize. I think its good to rehydrate asap. Water is not going to slip a gut. If its really cold water it can make you barf but that is not harmful. Any comments about water?
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:46 pm
by Ankle Express
dang AE sounds like you have the wrong day job, got that night job finished up yet?
Nope and still got the day job. Hard to get anything done on the night shift at home. We been real busy over at my old second job. The one I had when you were here last, over at Budwieser, checking born-on-dates. Just wish they paid more. Been all-state once but I'd go pro if the money was right.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:34 pm
by happydog
Were I live it can get really cold at times, and the dogs don't want to drink warm water and cold freezes quick, so I will boil water with beef bulan cubes in it, let it cool to a warm temp, add it to ther dog food and they always eat it all up. Its a pain in the ass,but I thing it's worth the effert. Can't lead a horse to water and make it drink but my potlickes I can.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:40 am
by treed
Ive lost 3 horses and 2 good dogs to twisted gut...Did alot of research on the problem ...Talked to several vets ...Since that time,have not had any problems...Twisting a gut can be caused several different ways according to research...One way is from intestinal worms and parasites...I was told by a vet that one of the biggest problems with horses and dogs is owner related...He explained that people have tendacy to feed their animals more food when they work them hard...So the dog hunter hunts his dogs real hard one day and decides to give his dogs a little more dog food than usual to help him recover faster...BIG NO NO ....If you need to increase the amount of dog or horse food, do it gradually....Just feed your animals the same amount out hunting as you do at home...
As far as feeding after a hunt, I always wait at least an hour before feeding my stock and dogs...I wait at least an hour after I get back to camp to water my stock.
As far as feeding before the hunt, I say right on...I would say an hour or so before you turn loose....
It has already been mentioned, and should go without saying....Proper hydration is a must....Since no experts can agree to one thing that causes this ailment,I try to use all the preventative measures....So far so good....good luck to ya....coopi
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:25 pm
by blue
I lost my big gascon male last year to the same thing. I fed dry food too soon after the hunt without realizing what I had done. It was an expensive lesson to learn and one that won't be repeated any time soon. Went out to the kennels in the morning to get him and he was so swollen up I could barely get him out of the dog house. By this time it was too late. No question that the advice given on this subject is worth while writing down and practicing. Never turn down free advice.
Re: Feeding your hounds AFTER a hunt?????
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:46 pm
by Spokerider
Another factor that contributes to twisted stomach or bloat, is the feeding of poor quality food, with a lot of non-digestible by-products in it......aka fillers. Fillers add bulk to the food, absorb water, and do nothing but fill the stomach up. If you can afford to feed the best food, then it`s probably the best option.
Also, a high fat diet is another contributing factor to twisted stomach. It take a lot longer for the dog to digest fat, as it is NOT digested in the stomach as with carbs and protein, but rather fat is digested and absorbed in the small intestine.
As you can see, cheap quality kibble with fat being listed as either the first or second ingredient, on the list of ingredients, would not be the best choice for our potlickers.
From a vet book I have.......