teaching pups

[newby]

Here's my question though, do you want the pups to associate you with punishment for smelling, trailing, chasing deer or do you want them to just have a superstitious reaction to the smell or sight of deer. Guess what I'm asking is, I've tried real hard with my dogs to not associate the shock for chasing deer with me, but as though the deer itself is causing the pain/discomfort, but it sounds as though you and others on this post are recommending training the pups that they get punished by you if they go after the deer, won't that only make them "broke" when you're present? Not saying either way is better, just trying to figure out which way others that know more than I do think is best. Thanks

[Warner5]

Good question. This might spark one hell of a debate, but I want my dogs to know I am commanding them to not run off game. They can see deer, smell deer, run past deer while on track, drive by deer while on the box and all is O.K. . But running deer is not allowed. What I dont want my dogs to know is how I reach out there and knock the hell out of them without laying a hand on them. My dogs respond very well to a tone. Truck horn, collar tone, my whistle, yarder whistle(I have picked alot of lost dogs up from loggers, I think the dogs came to the toot of the yarder whistle). Anyway I though it a good idea to start the tone sooner than later. Hoping it will replace some of the shocking needed on these dogs later on. When they hear a tone, I want them to think.

Going back to your question about whats best when it comes to who the dog thinks corrected it. I guess it depends on the breed of dog and the breed of hound hunter I have started dogs off thinking that the off game is the one that corrected them, but by the time the dog reached finished age they damn well knew I was behind it. It my be there is a fault in my training program. But it sure is hard to keep a secret from my dogs, when it comes to trash running. Also a very intelligent dog may not work well moving a track around a few deer if it truly believes the deer causes the corrections. Every dog is a little different one way might work and another might not. And thats just hound hunting I guess. I would also like to hear other opinions from experienced hunters. Most of my experience comes from working with the same breed of dog. Thankyou. John.

[South Texan]

Newby

That's a good question. I've tossed that one around myself for quite a few years and don't know which way is right or wrong. But... what I have finally settled with is to shock a dog for running off game without every saying a word to him. I don't hollar "GET BACK" or "GET OUT', I just shock him (with as light of intensity level as needed to stop him) and never say a word. Now I don't know if the dog associates this to me or not at "first". But the older a dog gets, the more he's hunted, and the broker he gets, I think they realize what I want and don't want. The reason I say that is because now when I have a young dog hit off game and my older broke dogs smell the off game, they are getting out of there and coming back to me. The broke dogs, thru time, lots of hunting, and showing them a lot of game of choice with no trash races in between, realize what can and can't be run. I do think at this point the older dogs associate off game to me. I'm their save spot when something is going wrong (trash) out there in the woods, they know (broke dogs) if they come back to me they don't get in trouble.

As far as being broke only when I'm present. No, they have learned thru lots of positive hunting what is expected of them. But... "Once broke always broke", I'd have to say no again to most dogs. Some people thing that once you have a broke dog that he's broke forever. False. You can't take a broke dog and keep exposing him to trash races over and over again, if you do, in time your broke dog is finally going to think "Well I guess this is alright" and he'll join in. Very few dogs are broke forever, if exposed to this situation. I have known of some people to get a broke dog and think that he was the sorryest dog in the world. "He just want run with my dogs", when all along the broke dog was trying to tell'em it wasn't right, but... they just couldn't read the dog.

Well I don't know if this sheds any light on your question are not. Which ever way ya try it, I hope it works for ya. Good luck and happy hunting. Robbie

[newby]

Thanks for the reply guys. I don't say a word when I correct for trash either, but I guess I thought that was teaching them that the off-game "bit" them, but then I'm probably not giving my dogs enough credit for knowing that I was somehow involved, because they too, come running to me and that's when I let go of the button.

When I grew up bear-hunting, the older guys I hunted with didn't have Tri-tronics, they had a switch and cattle prods, etc... and they used them, A LOT, when the dogs struck off game, but I'm pretty sure we had trash races at times when the dogs weren't near the owner, guess that's where my question stems from. I have dogs that are good as gold in the yard when I'm home, but the second I leave the house, they dig, chew, and become general nuisances because they know I'm not there to correct them. Now I have an electric fence around the perimeter of my yard and they don't dig out anymore cause the fence "bit" them once...and the beauty of it is I don't have to be the bad guy, it was that nasty fence.

[Warner5]

Good point about being your dogs savior. I also try to come out looking like the good guy if its possible, depending upon which dog is being corrected. I also agree with the broke dog statement. If you allow your dogs to run off game repeatedly then a newly purchased broke dog will not be broke long. And will appear to be a mediocure dog in most cases. Keeping dogs honest when away from you comes with time and work, I try to be unpredictable meaning I could pop up any where and join my dogs at any time. They never know when. Your dogs should be happy to see you, if not odds are they are up to no good. Thankyou John.

[david]

what are some things u do with pups to see if they will make a catdog .
jc

What a great thread. I love this stuff. I wish I had more time to read it as I know I have missed some great threads too.

I like what has been said about a pup learning. I agree the ideal is for him to be learning about the woods, but when that cant happen, next best is just that he is learning something. I want my puppys' mind to be stimulated every day if I can possibly make that happen. I even want it to happen before she is born if I can make that happen. All kinds of studies in humans, and dogs also have shown that the unborn is capable of being influenced toward certain behaviors or aptitude. The dog studies were in bird dogs, but the puppies whose mother was hunted until late in the pregnancy excelled over similar bred pups whose mother sat around being "comfortable and safe". The dogs even showed species preference toward what the mother was hunted on. Children whose mothers played classical music through headphones on their pregnant stomach all excelled in music and math.

If I cant let a puppy run, I like to haul it around with me where ever I go, if it is not too hot out. They watch and learn, and their brain is stimulated. I watch them, and see little things that I would miss otherwise. This helps me get an early read on the dogs intelligence and ability to solve problems. If there are kids around, there is just nothing better for a pup in my opinion. If I can farm a pup out to a family with kids it is a tremendous bonus. The pup will come back completely socialized with a brain that has been stimulated every waking minute. I always thought the best arrangement would be to have a friend with a daycare to take a couple pups for me for a while. I never had the friend with the daycare, but the kids would love that and so would the pups.

I like dogs that handle well. But I found the default command that covers all bases, including trash training is simply: "come" or the replacements of that command such as the horn or whoop which carry much further. As has been mentioned; The few feet around my body is the safety zone. If they hear the whoop, they better get in the safety zone right now. I like shock collars, but did not own one until toward the end of my dogging days. I could control the dogs with this sound. With shock collars, it is all the more easy. If I am not sure they are trashing, but i am getting suspicous, I give the whoop. They better quit what they are doing and get to me right now. It does not matter if it is good game or trash. If they do not quit and come on the run, they get shocked. They are most apologetic once they get in the safety zone. Once they are in the safety zone, they do not even get the slightest scolding. They are completely safe. They learn to love and trust that spot. The person that wants the deer to bite the dog has to worry if he is right or wrong. I never have that worry. If I call and they do not come, I am right and never wrong.

If I am setting them up on trash that I have seen, I do not call. But IF I am ever in doubt, I simply go to the default mode: call them.

[coastrangecathunting]

very well said david. this winter you are coming out for a week . hunt with me a day or the whole week . im sure there are some others out here u might want to ride along with . you can sleep in my bed and i will sleep on the coach.

jc

[david]

JC I still have the voice mail you sent me, i dont know, last fall? " ...They got him going good now. He is bringing them right up along the road... OOOoooo oww ow!"

I love it. I play it from time to time. Always makes my day a little brighter.

[david]

I failed to mention this for anyone trying to key in on the "safety Zone" concept:

If you do have to correct a dog near you, pass the leash around a sapling, and pull them away from your body, correct them, then let them get back in the safety zone and spend several minutes with them next to you getting spoken to kindly and petted. You can pull them out of the safety zone, pulley style, and repeat. Repeat the kindness for several minutes. Time yourself so you do not skimp on the amount of time praising them. It will feel like forever, but it is important.

Then let them walk around with you for a while. If they get out of the safety zone, correct them again, and repeat the process. When correcting, always use the sound that will come to mean "get right here, right now!" It can be your voice or a hunter horn or what ever you decide on. Do not start this type training until you have a full half hour to spend alone with the dog. Do not skimp on this time.

For me, I want them to actually make contact with my body when they first come, and as I pet them, they will be in contact with my body. This will not be for everyone, but I do not prevent the dog from mounting my chest to look me in the eye and say, "I am sorry". Some dogs will want to be brushing against my leg for a while as we walk. I allow this also. They only do it when there is trouble. Otherwise, they will be comfortably in the safety zone if I have told them to get there.

[newby]

After a recent trash extraveganza that I wasn't sure about for quite some time...I'd have to say David that I think I'm beginning to agree with the "safety zone" idea. When I first heard your idea...I must admit, I was a little skeptical, but something I just "re-read" "The person that wants the deer to bite the dog has to worry if he is right or wrong. I never have that worry. If I call and they do not come, I am right and never wrong." It finally clicked for me that this might be a better approach to trash-breaking/getting a handle on your pup/dog. Thanks for the ideas. One question though, if I get suspicious and call for the dogs and they don't come, will shocking them if it is good game set them back? This is a fine line for me not having a solid broke check dog in my pack or to hunt with. I have to depend on my gut and the evidence I have on hand and as brilliant as I think I am sometimes...unfortunately, I'm just guessing about 99% of the time. So, how do get a trash broke hound without getting just a "broke" hound? Thanks

[david]

One question though, if I get suspicious and call for the dogs and they don't come, will shocking them if it is good game set them back?
. So, how do get a trash broke hound without getting just a "broke" hound? Thanks

excellent questions as usual. It is vital that you do the preliminary training before you ever shock them. If they know that sound by heart, then their response is from their gut, just like Pavlovs dogs salivating at the sound of bell. It is almost a subconcious response. They will know they are getting shocked for not coming when you call them. If you have done the preliminary training, you will not probably need to shock them because they will quit and come in when you give them the sound.

this method is older than you or me, and certainly older than shock collars. It gave the old timers in the Oregon mountains control over their dogs without electronics. I myself never owned shock collars till very recently. I like them, but I dont need them, and I think maybe I do a better job without them. The man who showed this safety zone method to me was a government hunter who died shortly thereafter, and he learned it from an old man who died before that. He said he could call his dogs off a bobcat track a mile away. For me, I definately had to get closer than that, but did not drill them on it as much as he did. It is the most powerful tool I have ever seen for keeping your dogs safe, which means being able to control them. I have never had trouble deer breaking my dogs, partly due to the power this method has given me. Coyotes, hmmm now that's a different story ha ha ha.

Check your PM

[Warner5]

Some pic's. Here's J.C.'s Ringer pup & my Sonny pup. They tree'd this cat solo. Rig to tree. They are now 19 months.




I have more pics of these young dogs treeing cats. I will try to put them up soon. Thank you John.

[Warner5]

A couple pic's of Sonny, Sam & my oldest boy Troy(8). Luck was on our side in these pic's taken about a week ago. We tree'd 2 cats that nite and had Troy back home in his bed by midnight. I usually hunt 4 dogs, but my female was in heat and it made my other male act crazy, so he stayed home to. I will post more later. Thanks for looking. John.

[slowandeasy]

John,

Where the devil has old David been? I for one miss his posts. Course it's funny how you gravitate towards people that tend to think the same way you do. Doesn't mean either one of us are always right by any means. But still a new guy, could certainly learn a ton by paying attention to what he says.

Take care, Willie

[festus]

I have learned when David, Mr. CJC, and a few others decide to share some experience and advice I for one am definately going to pay attention as school is in.

Allways enjoy David and Mr C J Clays posts.