BigGameHoundsmen.com

Around here there are guys catching large #s of cats with a few dogs and there are guys catching a large # with larger packs. It can work either way. There are problems with both. The problem with a small # of dogs is like someone else metioned you can be out of dogs real quick.The pluss side of a smaller pack is price and time. A smaller pack can be maintained with less time involved and still catch cats pretty consistantly if the hunter knows what he is doing.But something happens to a couple of your best dogs and it can take a long time to replace them unless you have money.The problem with a larger pack is a lot of us cant aford it and a lot of people dont have the experince or invest the time to maintain it. It is going to be a mess unless it is the right hunter.I think all of us want every dog in our pack to be able to tree there own game. We all want a pack of six or more top knotch cat dogs that can catch almost every cat they get after but some of us cant afford it and some of us wouldnt know what to do with it if we had it. But it abviously will work either way buy piecing a pack together of finding the right one or two dogs and turning them into cat dogs. The biggest key is in the hunter . Take care Larry

Well said Larry. Dewey

dewey, your probably understanding what i was getting at. i sure hope not the only one. i have always felt that the more on the ground the more competition. and it was bad enough with 100% tree dog blood. now with the running dog mixed in its even more intense. now when they come down through the country thirty yards wide everyone running their mouths. one might be able to convince me the ones on the down wind side are drifting. but the ones up wind are just running for the front while running their mouths. and when they run off the end by three to five hundred yards bringing the rest of the i'm coming teamates with them. it makes it very hard for the real cat dog of the bunch to keep consistant presure on game. course i don't know anyone with 8 eight top ones, and if someone were to give me the amount of money it would take to buy 8 i don't know if i could gather them up by next fall. good talking take care

This is what comes into my mind when it comes to breeding, training, building, and maintaining a high performance pack of cat hounds.

I look at it this way a great football team always has to have a great head coach in order for them to win the Super bowl. A great head coach has an eye for talent and is continually looking to improve his team. The players win football games, but it’s the coaching that puts it altogether.

I by no means meant to take this off topic or turn it into a debate about the number of dogs necessary to constantly catch bobcats. I simply meant to say that it is not rare for a dog that is well bred, well trained, well conditioned and well rounded to constantly catch bobcats and do it with style.

Do I feel it is a better dog than a well trained pack dog from a pack that is given the opportunity by the handler to contribute? NO! One is not “better” than the other it is simply from another mans style of hunting. Would someone that prefers that style of dog crown one of my track straddlers dog of the year? Probably not.

Point is, I have hunted with a couple of the fellas from my area that prefer another style of dog. I admire the diversity they have in their pack. Do I know for a fact that they catch cats? OH YEA!!!! No question. The flip side…..Does my pack of 2-3 catch cats? Simply put….Yes. They are not the best in the region or even the best that I have owned but like many other houndsmen/women have high hopes for that damn pup that just ran off with my slipper.

I should probably keep my mouth shut with so may experienced hunters chiming in. But that would be no fun.
I ran a large pack of cat dogs about 16 years ago. When the track was right and every thing fell into place, dogs could quickly put pressure on the cat and maintain it. Producing some very fast cat tree's. Even on tricky educated cats. But when scenting wasent right, or when dogs just could'nt get the right track to get in a rythum it just seemed dogs would take 1 step forward and 2 steps back, this was before tri-tronics or tracking systems for me. I finally settled on alternating two 3-4 dog packs. The 2 to 4 dog pack works best for me, how I like to hunt.
For the past two years I have found myself once again running a 6 to 8 dog pack, cheating time and looking for talent, it has been productive at times and interesting at others. But for me its time to make some tough decisions and get rid of about half of my dogs. Given the opportunity I think some of the dogs I have right now could become very good cat dogs. I just dont think they will see that opportunity and get a chance to shine if I keep running to many at once. Just my take. John.

I'm going to respond to the original question of the importance of having every dog be a cat catcher in it's own right. Emphatically and without question, it would be the most important thing to me in my dogs if they were straight cat dogs or multiple species dogs. There is always a quality difference in every dog be it speed, nose, locate, maturing, etc. Only opportunity can tell a person whether the dog can do it or not and only opportunity repeatedly can make a dog rise to the highest level it can be at about 3 yrs old. In other words, the dog has to be given the chance to do it by themselves in as many conditions as possible (day/night, hottrack/coldtrack, dry/wet, etc.) to get really good and confident and they must be out there alone repeatedly with the risk to the hunter of losing some cats because of rookie mistakes and the hunter needs to be ok with that because that's apart of educating them. They also should honor and be honored by repeated hunts with THEIR pack. This seems to me to be the best way to judge a dog's quality and to build a better pack and possibly a better line. Pups should really show an aptitude for the game catching quality by 1.5 yrs., but usually younger.
I have a lot of respect for many dogs I've seen over the years that were straight me-to ers and were a benefit to the pack in one way or another whether it be speed on a jump or anchor at a tree and maybe they would have been different if treated so, but I just don't have the time or funds or desire to posses dogs that don't have all the traits necessary to start and catch a reasonable amount of game and then stay treed til I get there, ALL BY THEMSELVES. TRY and TREE, baby.

One thing I have learned is there is a drastic difference between what some guys consider cat dogs. Or what some guys consider dogs that can catch their own cat.

Almost every dog I have ever owned could catch their own cat, if conditions were right...blah...blah...blah. I have owned dogs that complimented each other well and were very successful as a pack. Each one of those dogs worked hard and would from time to time slip out on the rest and tree their own cat. I never tried it but I can almost guarantee none of those dogs would have done as well by themselves as they did with the help and support of the rest of the pack.

I have hunted with some great dogs that I am sure a lot of the West Coast cat hunters would recognize if I threw out names. When you watched those dogs work almost every one of them lacked something. Even though they had a great reputation of being a "once in a lifetime dog", they still had faults, and they still had a split second in most races where another dog helped them out. Without a pack a single dog will not produce what multiple dogs will.

Every dog I owned for more than a year could catch their own cat, but they were certainly more successful with the help of a well rounded pack. If you think you have that "once in a lifetime dog", hunt it all by itself next season. I guarantee you won't be happy with the results.

cobalt you truly have this mess dialed in. the main thing you said was individual hound time alone! and the cold truth is this is not as exciting, as running all of ones dogs. also most in this day feel with money being tight and limited amount of availible time, more often than not the thought process is (if i'm going their all going). and all though only bringing one or possibly two would more benificial to the hounds it never gets done this way. most truly know this is true but would rather get their pantys in a knot and try to make excuses and try and convince ones that know better that it is a more sucessful their way. and as far as breeding training , coaching and recognizing talent i think anyone in this conversation is or should be past that point in their quest for good dogs. as for me i'm not buying into the everybody gets a trophy deal, and the bone pile of the unsuccesfull will continue to grow. and i will be happy with quality not quantity. take care!

Well said Cobalt. My pack each dog has caught cats by themselves this year. Some more than others. I try not to get stale and use the same combo each time but rather switch it each time I went out. I prefer 1 or 2 dogs to start and feed in 1 dog and a pup or just a pup depending on how I feel the track is going to be. I hate going in on a loose and tracks are everywhere and its hard to tell where its at. Its like Colbat said CONFIDENCE that makes the dog good in my opinion.

George Streepy wrote: I guarantee you won't be happy with the results.

There are two different philosophies that are being represented here on this topic.The first is summed up in this quote by Mr. Streepy and it is results oriented and is based on immediate gratification.These people want as many cats in the tree as possible and will travel whatever route is the shortest to accomplish that task.To them,numbers is the name of the game.The flip side of the coin is represented by Cobalt's comments.His idea is to train a dog to be the best in can be as an individual.Sometimes your results or numbers will suffer but that is ok.He doesn't measure success by how many trees he counts at the end of the year.His focus is on making dogs not trees.His enjoyment and satisfaction comes from the process of making the best dog he can, not looking up at as many bobcats as he can.For some people it is all about the dog work and their focus is on each dogs individual abilities and for others the focus is on success and the fastest way to get there.Neither one of them is the right or wrong way,just different,but when it comes time for me to buy a pup,I know which type of program I want mine to come from.

Well said Miles...

This has turned into a great post with alot of wisdom. Thanks again and keep your thoughts coming. This is what keeps the bobcat forum so interesting is that we all dont do things the same way but in the end we still accomplish what we are looking for. As long as the houndsman is happy with what he has is all that matters. Andy

Cobalt, you pretty much summed it up for me. I was trying to get at that in my previous post, but did not make it nearly as clear as you just did. Slowandeasy, I sure like your straight forward approach to looking at things. Trueblue you also just made alot of sence to me. U.R.E, roseburg is close. I would like to shake your hand some time. Thank you. John.

I agree wholly with George. 95% of my "hayday" years of hunting were done with a packs of 2 to 6 dogs. 5% were focused on the individuality of a single prospect. That 5% is hugely important IMO. What I have preached is definitely not what I have always practiced, but I have come to the conclusion that when I did practice it, my sucess with dogs was better and my ability as a trainer improved. I have a couple basic rules I try to follow. One is consistency/repetition and the other is dogs are made one at a time. I am a firm believer the finished product has much less to do with the dog than it it does with the training. I am the trainer, not my other dogs. Even though a lot is learned by the other dogs while on a track, I want to have the most amount of control and that comes from one on one time. Three good dogs will catch more game than one good dog, that is a given. I don't ever count on having an exceptional dog and I don't look for one, I just hope for well balanced dogs that I enjoy being around. I try to put the responsibilty of making dogs mostly on myself and not so much on the dog. I can't control speed or nose and some other traits and dogs may go down the road because of a lack of something important, but the rest is on me. When someone comes to the house and wants to go on a hunt with one dog, I want to be able to say, "then pick one" and lets go. Whether we catch something or not isn't as important as the fun I have in being confident the dog's potential is what I think it is. The truth is what is witnessed, not what is theorized.