The sticky hound.

[slowandeasy]

x3

[coastrangecathunting]

i think the dog needs corrected but after u lay him up for a week. i have been around the dog and he is like a kid that is afraid to make a mistake.give him some home time. when u drive up to your dads just take him with u and get his confidence IN YOU back, after he comes out of his funk correct him . jmo.

jc

[al baldwin]

I agree with JC lay him up. Some where in the post on here I told about a young hound that stopped running deer after a long layup. I had given up on breaking him layed him up not expecting to solve his problem. Tried to give him away. Can tell you from experience laying a young dog up can do them a world of good sometimes. And I DISCOVERED BY PURE ACCIDENT! Al

[Warner5]

Well thanks for all the advice fella's, this has been a tricky 1. Whats this dog doing and how do I explain it well enough on this damn computer for everyone to get something out of it.

The advice 90% of you gave me is the same I would have given if I were in your shoes. Having raised and trained the dog, I have knowkedge about him that I could never get across on this computer.

This dog has never been one to lagg behind. I still believe that if I go to beeping and shocking at the tree at this time. I will ruin him. When I say ruin, I mean turn him into a dog that stands on the shoulder of the road waiting for the other dogs to make a decision. I need to get his confidence back before I do any more training. Thanks for the help. John.

[South Texan]

John,
From what I gather from reading your post, I believe the mistake that was made is when you had your full blown deer race & you said the old me come out & lost your temper & over corrected.

I know, I have also done it. It's easily done when you get mad.

But those timid type dogs that can't handle much corrections, is the ones that really get sets back when this happens.

I have learned through the years that I have to learn each of my dogs limits to the shock collar & correct accordingly. The hard headed ones that you can shock on 6 & they come in & then blow right on by you as your road hunting are the easier ones to train because you can make mistakes with them with the shock collar & it never phases them, they just go right on like nothing happened. But those timid ones is a different deal. Those are the ones we have to be real careful with as we correct them.

I believe if this dog was mine I would just keep hunting him for a while, until he loosens back up. After he loosens up, if he is still bumping trees then correct him. And correct him CAREFULLY. But if the tree bumping continues, it will have to be dealt with. Hard to catch a cat with that going on & also get contagious to the other dogs.

Good luck with your dog! Hope it all works out.
Robbie



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

[cobalt]

You're sure right about this situation not being a rarity, maybe somewhat unique, though, probably happening because the dogs are doing so well at a young age.
It's too bad you didn't fry his ass good on the first deer. Hard to get back those opportunities.
I think it is absolutely rational that the whooping you put on him on the second deer race made him do this, maybe not because of reward, but because of safe zone. You cannot over praise a dog that is locked up treed with the game, that is the ONLY time during a hunt they get petted up due to the nature of hounding. If he's been praised enough because he's caught a few then it makes sense that, after been over disciplined if he feels pressure due to an extended loss of track, he will go to a safe place. I've seen older dogs that fall behind the younger members of the pack go to false treeing. Hunting them alone helps sometimes.
Treeing can be a delicate trait esp. with heavy timber bobcat dogs.
You got a real problem that whatever the chosen cure is, could go one way or another depending on how the dog processes the correction. This dog may be too smart for his own good .
Ive shocked dogs off of deer races and done it right only to have the dog never road properly again and the track wasn't started by roading. Another unrelated relationship. The truck being the safe zone.
I believe putting the dog back in the saddle immediately could end in disaster for the dog. He's obviously confused and as a juvenile, much more fragile and impressionable than a fully mature dog. Give him some kennel time is my opinion. I don't think it could hurt. And at least it gives the other dogs a chance to contend with one less negative variable.
That dog damn sure knows there's nothing in that tree!! And so should any dog whose honoring him.
If other dogs are honoring him, why is that happening?

[Warner5]

Well it sure is a wake-up call. A guy can make the right moves and see progression in his dogs, then make a mistake or 2 at the wrong times and see dogs really set back from it.

Some extra attention, careful handling, and fur in his mouth might just make him forget and help mend his broken heart. Thank you. John.

[al baldwin]

Excellent post by South Texan & Colbolt. Interesting, I never thought a young hound would faulse tree because it had it/s butt kicked for running deer. But there was a time I would have considered it a waste of time to lay a dog up for running deer. Live & learn. Thanks Al

[slowandeasy]

Quote Warner5 :
Some extra attention, careful handling, and fur in his mouth might just make him forget and help mend his broken heart.

John,

I know what I am about to say that you personally won't take offense to. But I am sure there will be a few looking to jump all over my way of thinking. And this is fine, as that is what makes the world go round.

I personally do not have much tolerance for a hound that I have to tiptoe around. Nor would I camouflage the issue and call it brains. Don't get me wrong, I won't tolerate and idiot either. There is a huge difference at both ends of the spectrum, and there should be middle road that we breed for. But without brains, drive and heart in that order. None of us really have very much.

The knuckleheads that I have here right now. All handle about as well as well rounded parents children do. They come when called, they go directly to the truck when it is time to leave. And when we come home. They go directly to their own personal houses can wait for me to take their collars and to clip their chain to them. And they now no matter how hot it is under no circumstance are they to stop and drink water at or somebody else's water bucket. They go to their own spot, just like dairy cows used to when they still used stanchions. And they do this, all without me tiptoeing around them, worrying about how hard I slammed the car door, how long I held the button on the try Tronics, or if I gave them a swift kick in the ass. Does any of this mean that they will still be eating my dog food. Come summer? Absolutely not. That will be based purely on the amount of talent that they show. But one thing for sure they will get the opportunity, along with any punishment that comes with it without me worried about hurting their feelings. There are way too many other things that go into making one of these dogs a good hound without having to worry about coddling them also.(IN THE NAME OF BRAINS )

All of this being said. Have no fear, for the self-proclaimed experts will have you believing that all of these individual dogs with the problem you are describing are simply just chock full of brains. And even try to breed for it. And if you play your cards right, you could probably sell them a couple.

Take care, Willie

[al baldwin]

Greetings Willie have no problem with your way of thinkging. What ever suits the one who feeds the hound. However in my experience those timid hounds have been very easy to trash break & most likely to tell on a trashy pup. Also had to be more careful with the amount of punish I used on them. However once I had thier confidence & was sure they knew right from wrong, sure have turned it to six and fried them. Or in the early days hung them from a bush & made them think thier time had come. In fact the first true check hound I owned became a check hound after being hung from a bush and that hound only had one owner in her life. After that bush ordeal she sure made training pups a lot easier for me. She was not perfect but sure caught some tuff cats and became my yard stick to measure how well the others could run a cat. But she cheated swung wide on a loose on a dead run & when she got the track put some distance between the other hounds before opening. She was also the hound that never started rigging cat until she was eight years old. Not sure if I can truely believe that whipping for running deer caused John/s dog to start false treeing. But was told by a friend of Colbalt that Colbalt was a very intelligent houndsmen & ONE HECK OF A HOUND TRAINER. Have a great day Al

[Unreal_tk]

I believe what Cobalt is saying is the tree is a safe zone for the dog, and after being burned on that deer race he wants to be safe from being corrected, so he trees. I could be incorrect, but that's what I took from it.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Al Baldwin : Or in the early days hung them from a bush & made them think thier time had come.

Mr. Al,

Every time you post on here, I recognize old-school wisdom. There is a good majority that doesn't even know what hung from a Bush means. Some believe that they have given a dog a woopin. But you and I know and probably a few others until they have had those front feet high enough off the ground so that they can't eat you. Reality is, they've just lightly been scolding.

I reread my post and thought maybe some thought I was saying something negative in regard to Cobalts. I sure didn't see anything. And besides, Me and Cobalt have talked privately, and we both know what page we are on. Anyway, let me go get some supper just got in from varmint calling and all I have to do is worry about stuffing my face tonight as I won't have to worry about skinning anything

Take care, Willie

[CRA]

Having to discipline sensitive hounds can be very difficult. I have owned many over the years, I believe mine got the sensitive disposition and leery character from the running hound bred into them. All the striaght tree bred hounds I have owned werent that way with the exception of a few. I will say that I have over done some treatments and in my opinion ruined or set way back a few possibly great prospects that were sensitive to discipline.

It’s hard to type this out and try and make it make any sense, but here it goes. I have never seen a 100% broke dog that was still breathing. At the same time I’ve seen dogs I would call too broke. What I mean by “Too Broke” is a sensitive to discipline hound getting over corrected and losing all their trust in other dogs and sometimes their handler. I don’t mean that they were truly 100% broke off trash. I’ve had dogs before that if they didn’t start the track themselves or wasn’t on the ground when the track was started, they would refuse to run the track (even if it was good game). You couldn’t get them to go to running or trailing dogs. They got the fear in them so bad that they seem to stop hunting, if anything out of the ordinary happened. They basically seemed to lose any honor they had for other dogs and seemed scared most the time unless they were hunted with other dogs they trusted. They hunted like they were being constantly set up on a trash track. If you would road young dogs or strange dogs with them, as soon as they roaded past off game they would normally get in their comfort spot and that was normally behind the truck. This drives me crazy to witness. To be honest I dislike the type of dogs that you have to walk on egg shells around. Sensitive hounds aren’t for everyone. But at the same time I dislike iron heads also. I like a hound that can take some form of discipline, learn from it and move on. Sure those types need an occasional reminder not to run trash, but I would rather deal with an annual deer race or two than worrying about completely ruining them from one incident. Looking back at it now and thinking about how I had to handle those hounds with kid’s gloves just so I didn’t spook the hunt out of them is crazy. They were nice dogs "at times" but they didn’t perform no differently or trash any less than my occasional coyote or deer bumper that could take discipline and shake it off and go hunting.

Here are a few examples of behavior of sensitive and leery type of dogs I have owned in the past and some of the things they would do. I had a dog that wouldn’t eat her food unless I was the only one out at the kennel. If my boy’s fed the dogs with me she would refuse to eat until they left the kennel area and were out of sight. I’ve had some that refused to hunt with strange dogs, or people. I’ve had some that wouldn’t road hunt if there was another rig behind mine. I’ve had some that would stop treeing and hide in the brush if I had someone strange with me at a tree, that they weren’t comfortable around. I had some that if you got rough with another dog because it was rushing the dog box door, or moving around too much while I was collaring up, I would have to crawl into the back of the dog box and gently pull them out and speak super nice to them. I had one that if you just so much as tapped her with the shock collar she would refuse to hunt that day. I had some hounds that if they knew another hound got shocked off trash they would shut down and not hunt. Now does anyone believe any of the described dogs could take serious punishment without ruining them? Not me. These types of dogs are very annoying and can easily and quickly be ruined by a heavy hand.

Here’s an example of how I believe I ruined a sensitive hound. I was out just roading my pack one day for exercise. It was super dry and windy. Conditions were near impossible to run anything very long. I only put shocking collars on my 2 young prospects. (First mistake) These young dogs had been hunting hard. They were working great. I couldn’t have been happier with my young dog’s prior performances. They had already been on a lot of game and I was sure they would make the cut. While I was roading a Coyote ran across the road in a dead run, about 50 yards in front of my dogs. Every dog, I believed seen the Coyote. My dogs were after that Coyote as fast as they could run. It was just a roar up the hill. I couldn’t grab that Tri Tronics transmitter fast enough. I knew I didn’t have any of my other dogs wired up except my 2 young ones. My thoughts were if I shocked the 2 hard enough their hollering and yelping would stop the rest of the pack because they knew better anyhow. (Wrong) (Second Mistake) I microwaved those 2 young dogs so hard they did flip flops all the way down the hill and back to the truck. I spent the rest of the day rounding up the rest of the Coyote running SOB’s. From that day on, 1 of the 2 young dogs wasn’t worth owning. He never roaded again in front of the truck, and refused to go to an opening hound. I gave this dog more than enough time to come around, but it was pointless. He would just stand in the road while the others treed cats in front of him. I over corrected this young prospect and turned him into basically nothing. This happened because I lost my temper and took it out on the one’s I had control over. I knew correction was needed on him but this was his first time needing serious discipline and I should have started with just a zap, instead of the electric chair! But the other young dog shook it off and become a super nice dog that stayed fairly clean, with not much more than a scolding after that. There is something about catching them red handed that brings out the rage in a hunter. Since that incident I have become way less reactive to those types of situations. It’s funny how age will settle a guy down and make them not be so explosive and quick to react, and think things out. I’m definitely guilty of some bush hung dogs Mr. Al. That was the only method for years. I think I still may have Dad’s old fan belt with a trigger snap somewhere.

Every hound has a different way of reacting to discipline situations. Some get the point easier than others. Some can take a butt whipping and not a shock collar, and vice versa. Some don’t need more than a few slaps from your hat and a butt chewing in a rough loud voice.

John,
I believe the reason your pack isn’t working together like before is because they lost trust in each other. What I mean by that is your seasoned dogs knew better, but the excitement sometimes overtakes the brains and they committed to a trash track (especially a stinking rutting deer). They are dogs not robots, they make mistakes. Now your dogs knew better but were sucked in by their young buddies that never failed them before. After you gave them a stern correction they lost trust in each other and the young dogs that got them that butt whipping. Hounds learn quickly to not get overerly excited and aren’t so quick to honor those dogs that they recognize opening on a track that got them their butt whipping. That’s where I believe the losing honor and working together thing has taken its curve in your packs performance since the deer incident.

Time and regaining each other’s trust should fix it. It may take awhile, so be patient. After some good cat races they should get over it and start working together again, as they were before.

With the false treeing starting to happen after that incident I will side with Cobalt, I believe that dog wants you’re praising. He wants to please you and knows that when he trees, good things happen to him. He gets petted and praised and a lot of positive attention from you at the tree.

My rule of thumb is never encourage, sic or praise any dog until after I have spotted the cat on a limb. Even then I don’t get too carried away.

Laying this dog up may help. It will give him time to get over the deer incident and give you time to think out how you are going to handle these hang up trees. I encourage you to don’t let this problem ever go unpunished. Stop it quick or it will spread into your other dogs. If this hound trees with the power and authority that you described than progressive discipline won’t hurt his treeing abilities. Just start small and don’t lose your temper. He has shown you in the past that he don’t hang up on every curve ball a cat throws at him, which would lead me to believe that it’s fixable. Sounds like he knows what good game is and I believe you will have him fixed quickly.

There is a lot of wisdom in this thread and I sure hope I didnt ruin it with my post.

[South Texan]

EXCELLENT post! I wish I could put my thoughts down on paper like you can Mr. CRA.

I agree & have seen nearly ever scenrio you have described & agree completely with every thing you have said.

Thanks for your input!

Boys, we can all learn something from Mr CRA. This fellow knows what he's talking about!

Thanks again!
Robbie



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

[al baldwin]

I need to say being consistent in correcting hounds is what makes hounds one can enjoy hunting. In my experience keeping the young dog with clean hounds sure made things easier. When i was training that female her mentor was not always straight & in the process she learn to check him on deer. I was very selective who I hunted with. I enjoyed hunting with other people just found it very hard to mix the hounds. Most hunters did not hunt straight cat yet some could not understand my being so particular. Thank goodness with the modern tools now days those old methods are no longer needed. I always took the best care of my hounds I could afford & punishing one was never something I enjoyed. I just used a good keen switch before the ecollars. When I needed punished as a kid that what was used on me. CRA & south texan are hunters you young hunters can gain a lot of knowledge from. Thanks Al