Garmin & Tri-Tronics

[kordog]

garmin or no garmin give me a hound that barks ,but still catches game consistently . if not you will find a guy in the maine woods that resembles rumple stiltskin.i like my woman semi silent and that is about it.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Al Baldwin : Also don/t believe in breeding dogs that are trained to stay treed, not bark off, over run a track &etc using the tri. are not going to reproduce pups that have these traits bred out of them. My guess is you will still need that tri on the next generation. But, to each his own and if you like it , hunt it.


Al,


I thought about this all day. What a breath of fresh air. I have found myself talking to myself about some of the stuff that we all read on this computer. I think we all have allowed ourselves to way way over think this stuff. And make it way harder than it should be.

Al's quote could not have been said any prettier. And what I'm about to say is not directed at anybody, myself included. I just feel that years ago a cure for all of these problems came in a little green and yellow box. And just maybe all of this adjusting may be contributing to the fact that we have to deal with the problems constantly. I know I for one am going to revert back to some of the old tried and true ways of doing things.

Thank you Al, for being like the little kid in the advertisement that slaps his mother in the head. And says you could've had a V-8. As that is what I find myself doing. Hitting myself in the head and asking the question. What is wrong with you are you going backwards, Willie? Thanks again Al, as sometimes I think we all tend to think we can do anything with nothing. And it's a bad road to go down.

Take care, Willie

[johnadamhunter]

Hey Willie,
I totally agree with y'all but I keep reminding myself that I have done so much for so long with so little that I now believe that I can do most anything with absolutely nothing!

John

[dwalton]

When a young hunters come to hunt with me there are two things that I tell them and when you understand them you are on your way to becoming a good houndman. One is that the dog hunts with you and not you with the dog. Two Don't sit in the pickup and make up a story as to what is happening get out there and find out. With the second one you horse and foot hunters are already out there but here in the northwest most people hunt from a pickup. With the tools we have{ Garmin and shock collars] It is far easier to train a dog. You are able to see what the dog is doing setting in the truck. Before we had to rely on our hearing and the story that was made up as to what was happening. The nosiest dogs were given to much credit in my OPINION. How many times have you been running dogs with someone and the story they tell as to what was going on was totally different than the way you saw it. It sure is a lot easier to see what is happening now.There are very few dogs that just do it all without some help, with the right use of the tools we have we can make a better dogs out of what we have. We can also see more accurately the dogs we should be breeding. I have came a long ways from my days of running a dog down and correcting him with a hazel. The tools we have save time, fuel, dogs and a lot of worry. Good hunting. Dewey

[al baldwin]

A lot of time has pasted since I figured out the dog doing the most barking is not always leading the race. I spent little time setting in a pickup listening to the dogs work. Never like to hunt at night, enjoy seeing the dogs work when possible, that was hard to do in this area most of the time. Enjoyed hearing the hounds work, sold a few nice hounds that caught their share of game but were too tight mouth to suit me. That is sure each hunters choice, dogs only need to please the person who feeds then. Willie no offense, but I think you added the word ( in ) when you quoted me and it kinda changed what I meant to say. And for sure things I type could be stated prettier. But I/M to poor to hire a secretary and my wife refuses to work for me. Thanks to all for posting. Al

[Todd Davis]

I am curious when people are toning are shocking dogs for being off track while trailing , how far do you consider off track few Feet or few yards ??? I have taken four dc-30s hung them on a fence post couple feet apart from top to bottom and got about a half mile away and had them all read different distances some yard some feet from each other . When switched over to the map and zoomed in one was all over the place. Maybe my collars need tuned up .
Todd

[mondomuttruner]

Todd, your absolutely right. I've seen dogs that on the screen appear to be drifting the track a few yards off but when seeing them with your own eyes, there all in line. I think it depends on the day. Gps is a tool, you still need to know your dogs, when they bark, why they bark, how they bark. The only way to do that is spend time in the brush with them. I think the biggest thing is to pay attention to the whole race. Don't turn them loose and sit and bullshit till something happens, there's so many little things that happen in a race that could explain this or that Probably a poor explanation of what I'm trying to say but I hope you got the jist of it.

I should add that I've always used the tone function to recall dogs so I just can't make it work to adjust dogs on track. I've tried it a couple times and they shut down and come out.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Mondo : I should add that I've always used the tone function to recall dogs so I just can't make it work to adjust dogs on track. I've tried it a couple times and they shut down and come out.


Mondo,

Your quote comes from real world experience. Which we probably could use a lot more of. You see, although I and probably everyone else that runs hounds. Believes that brains are right up there at the top of being the most important trait in a hound. They will never be able to reason as humans. When I speak of brains, I'm talking about being game wise. The uncanny ability to know where to look for game, and how to overcome the obstacles that the animal being chased does to try and lose the hound.

Now to my knowledge. There is no electronic device to date. That sends a verbal message to the hound, that let's them know what they are being corrected for at that particular moment. So I guess you have to pick your poison, as to what particular things you are going to use the tone and the juice for. And yes, there are a few different things that you can get away with in the right circumstances. But by no means is it a very long list of things, as it doesn't take much to overload their brain.

So I guess it goes back to the same old thing. If whatever they are doing wrong. You can live with. And it doesn't affect the and results of catching game, you are feeding them, and it's your decision to tolerate it. Or not. My definition would be, problem students = green and yellow box. As I truly choose to try not to deal with the problem litter after litter.

Take care, Willie

[Unreal_tk]

The last 3 posts are what a beginner should really pay attention to what was said. I think its great others have found techniques that they can use to help shape a pack but your average joe probably should stay with simple and not over think it.

[dwalton]

Good post I feel you can teach a dog as much as you are willing to spend the time. Now that does not mean you can over come genetics but you can condition a dog. I think the shock collars are misused by a lot of people but you see more and more using them better than the past where they were just for firing a dog on off game. The garmin wanders as anyone that uses should be aware but you can still see a lot of what is going on. My dogs come off a jump track when I call and tone. It is the combination of commands that work best for me.To be real effective with correcting a dog on anything one should be in sight of the dog. Dogs are forgiving animals I have shock dogs on several occasion when I thought they were wrong but it was I that was miss reading what I saw or heard. I have told Tim many times that I should be putting a collar on him and at times I wished it was myself when I had shocked instead of the dog for a wrong call. I think we are on the same page with this, there is something lost for me when I try to put it on paper. Dewey

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

I have put lots of thought into this Post. I agree with lots of what others have had to say, and probably will be excoriated for these comments but hope to help just one person who may read them.

Several Good Houndsmen have posted that you need to know what you are doing when you use the Shocking/Training component of any Brand of Collars. We feel that they are Correct! This reinforces our advice for a beginner to spend time Learning from an experienced Houndsman! Learning not just HOW and/or WHEN to use the equipment, but HOW to communicate with your Hounds! Another very good way to learn how to PROPERLY USE the Training/Shocking Mode on the Collars is to read John Wicks Books, Columns, and Tips on the Tri-tronics Website!

In the original Post on this thread concern is given about being sure that you can/are reading your Hounds properly before any correction is made. This is a very VALID concern! But to quote a resent Guest “I am so jealous of new Hunters today, with all the new Tools that they have, there is no excuse for not having GOOD Hounds”. This Hunter from the NW was referring to the Garmin’s allowing you to see in real time what the Hounds were doing and having the Tri-tronics to correct an issue before it became a problem.

Now to the part that will cause the Hair to rise on the backs of some necks! We Hunters as a Group are very POOR Dog Trainers. Compared to other Disciplines we Train Hounds to do very little…..if you do not believe me just go to a Sheep Dog or Retriever Trial and see how to COMMUNICATE with a Dog!

Almost any problem/fault a Hound has can be corrected! Always could, and has been by the few Level 4 Cat Hunters (referring to the rating scale for Cat Hunters to be found “The Northern Bobcat Dog”). Now, after spending some time with a Successful Hunter/Houndsman, the Neophyte can/should be able to do the same things with the new technology available. Even the Beginning Weekend Warrior has very few excuses for having trashy or mouthy Hounds.

The Key is COMMUNICATION with your Hounds; You listening to and understanding what they are telling you. You are now able to verify with your eyes (on the Garmin) what your ears are telling you.

Now we find with most Hunters the COM is mostly one way…..from the Hounds to the Hunter. How can we expect the Hounds to do what we want if we are not communicating with them? One of the VERY GOOD pieces of advice given earlier is that your Hounds should Hunt with you….not you Hunting with them.

Very True! But how does even the Smartest Hound know what you want if you do not COMMUNICATE your wishes to them? One of the most frequent comments we hear from Guests is “Why do you Hollar so much”. Yes Hollaring is one of the ways we maintain Com with our Hounds. While it may seem like I/We are just making noise, each Hollar has a different tone, sound, and meaning.

OK you say but what about when the Pack is in Full Cry and a Hound needs correcting…..now is when the True Genius of the Tri-tronics comes into play. Much has been written about Tone-ing a Hound to recall it to the Truck or Hunter. Yet Hounds are much more perceptive than just using this one trick.

We too train Hounds to return to the Truck with a Tone……but a Long (aprox 3-4 sec. tone).
When we want a Hound to stop and think about something; examples being: barking behind, swinging out too far, being out of place from where the track is moving, needing to hear a Swinging Hounds pick up…..all of these and many more are where a single short Tone will get the Hound to stop and think/listen for a moment.

If a major transgression has been committed a Hound is warned with three short Tones. If this does not correct the problem then an Intermittent Shock is given (with the old Tri-tronics we had to keep the level at 6 to reach any distance…with the ALPHA you can use a much lighter level). This in most case stops the problem and will either send the Hound to the Hounds who are barking in the correct place or to the Truck.

Other variations of Short and Long Tones send different Messages to our Hounds. If you do not believe this possible, then again go to a Sheep Dog or Retriever Tial and listen to how many signals the Dogs hear and respond to!

NEVER is a Hound “Burned Up” with a continuous high level SHOCKING!

Several Posters above talk about “Experience” being better than the new Tools.

Another talked about “Training” for the Hunter/wouldbeHoundsman.

The Experience thing can be gained by investing the TIME interning with a SUCCESSFUL Cathunter/Houndsman. As far as the Training thing goes…..well you can read and reread these Threads here on BGH…..and/or read David’s book…. or wait for someone to become a “Cat Hound Whisperer” and start putting on Seminars.

Part two of the original Post mentioned these new TOOLs aiding or not in Selection of Hounds for matings. I would agree the Garmin is a Great Tool in Hound Evaluation, actually seeing in real time what Hound is doing what when you cannot be there.

As to Pups expressing problems that Parents may have had and were corrected by the Training/Shocking mode, this varies. Some Traits seem to be highly heritable some not so much. A Parent who was way too mouthy as a young Hound may pass this along (if it was a Female who expressed this we have found that some of her Pups may be loose Mouthed). But other problems may not be passed on. If you are Selecting Hounds who have developed into Superior Hounds, but may have had MINOR issues as youngsters, for matings, you should be OK!

Just My/Our poor opinions!

[Matt_Potter]

Great post thanks for taking the time.

Matt

[dwalton]

C. John Clay well said. As I said earlier we can have as well trained hounds as we have or take time to have. That includes years of hunting experience, years of trying different dogs in different places and breeding that works. Their are no perfect dogs, hunters or breeders but their are some .... good ones out there. All you have to do is look with a open mine realizing that there is something to learn from all. Dewey

[slowandeasy]

C.J.

Ya know, it truly amazes me. That if you have the desire. To read everything you can, and surround yourself with people that actually know what they are talking about. Not just think they know it all. Just how far you can come with anything you put your mind to. After 50 years of running hounds. It has become more than apparent, at least to me. It makes little difference what critter you chase. But as a true dog man, what you expect from every hound that you snap a leash to. But all too often. There are way too many within the sport. That are in the game for three years, and the dogs that they own are the only dogs they have owned in their whole life. But they know it all!! And there are countless numbers of them. That, year after year. Step into their concrete shoes. And remain there throughout their hound hunting careers. Truly a shame, but as with alcoholics or drug addicts. Until you hit rock bottom, and realize that everybody in the rest of the world isn't stupid. And that you are the only one with the answers. I guess that is where they usually end up staying .

I think all of the above. Has an awful lot to do. With all the modern technology that we used to train our dogs. Which brings me to where I fall into the equation. Although I've always had an open mind. And listened to many before me as to what is expected from a hound, from beagles write up the food chain. All too often, it has been plain and simple. Knowing what Willie expected from a hound. And then, Willie cramming Willie down the throats of horses, mules, and hounds. Mule's, were at the top of the list that made me realize I was making a big mistake. Glad I was smart enough to take their hints before one of them killed me. And I am sure happy that through working with the horses and mules. That it open that thick skull of mine. To realize that training an animal that truly enjoys what you are teaching it. That also has the desire to do it to please. Always, and I mean always produces a better product. If Tim Pittman is lurking around here. I am sure that he will verify at least some of what I said. As after only talking to him a couple times. There is no doubt in my mind. Where he sits on the totem pole in regard to the things that I said above.

And to all of the know it all's. When Carrry mentioned Bobcat Hound Whisperers. I would just like to make one minor correction to his statement. I would say Hound Whisperers. As I believe the same thing should be expected from a hound. Whether you choose to chase mice, or elephants. So all of those with all of the answers. Go ahead and laugh, continue down the road you are on. But I for one know. That, I'm glad I was smart enough to have a little bit of vision. That when everyone else was saying. This is the way my grandpa's grandpa did it, my grandpa, and my dad did it. And that's the way it will always be done. That I realized there was a better way.

I guess time will tell. If anything in this post will be helpful. Or if it will just fall on deaf ears.

Take care, Willie

[Dads dogboy]

After several PMs and a couple of phone calls, I feel that I need to clarify the above Post a little.

What I/We do and are able to do with the Training mode on the ALPHA System is to use the TONE feature more as a Long Range Whistle to SIGNAL commands to the Hounds; rather than as a Sound to FRIGHTEN the Hound that a shock is on the way. The later is of course what the TONE is designed to do, but has so many more applications if used properly!

To do this you must be careful in how you lay the Foundation with the Hound/Pup and the Training/Shocking Tool. John Wick does a very good job of explaining how to Properly Lay this Foundation in his writings. These can be found in his Books, Columns in several Magazines, and on Tri-tronic's Website. These should be a "MUST READ" before anyone uses any brand of Training/Shocking System.