level of the shock collar

[dwalton]

A lot of this conversation has been about trash breaking. I going to make a couple of statements for you to think about. If dogs are raised right there is very little trash breaking. WE teach our dogs to run trash by not training them properly. Dogs don't run coyotes naturally they learn from other dogs as with most trash. The dogs want to please when we get across what we want they learn fast. Now I know that there are no absolutes but in general. If the ground work is done a pup will come on a tone button. When walk hunting young dogs, when the old dogs show up under foot and the young dogs get flighty a tone brings them back. What I have seen time and time again is young hunters let the pups work the track thinking they are doing good. Now by young hunters I mean from 16 to 80. I see a lot of pups taken hunting before any ground work has been done. Here comes trash races. Is it the dogs fault or the hunters. I took 12 dogs for a walk the other day. 6 were 12 and 13 months old. when 10 dogs showed up under foot and two were headed out a tone and call got them back shortly. No deer race before it got out of hand. I walked three or four times a week last summer to keep in shape. I had 17 dogs with me most of the time 10 being under a year old by fall most would not run trash all would come to a tone and call. No dogs were restrained. Every day 24 hours a day you are training your dogs or not. Every interaction the dogs are learning something. It may be good or bad it is up to you not the dog. Hounds can be taught anything we want it just takes time and that is time well spent when it comes to hunting season. During hunting season it is time to hunt not get the basics done on a pup. If you are having trouble with trash or a hard headed dog look at your breeding or your way of training. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO TRAIN A DOG WE JUST MAKE IT HARD. If you have a chance to read Meet Mr. Grizzly by Montague Stevens do so, he was 100 years ahead of time in training hounds. Dewey

[al baldwin]

Dewey thanks for the post. You are correct about spending time with pups, exposing to deer & etc, calling them off nosing game before getting a trash race going, a luxury when one has a good strait older hound as a trainer. Most of the young hounds I raised & trained ( after I had gained some knowledge) were almost trash free. However I found after a young hound had given no trouble on off game, some not all at about two years old, especially in the spring of the year would decide try running a coyote. In visiting other houndsmen over the years, they shared this same opinion. Do not believe my older hounds taught this to them. I never claimed to have the most talented hounds in the world, but do believe if you talked with the few people that hunted with me, or bought a trained hound from me they would tell you they found my dogs to be very clean hounds. I appreciate your opinion on this coyote theory, but don/t know if that is something that has been the case for you or if you are just stirring the pot, as you say you will do to get a debate going. As you know Dewey I hunted with several hounds in Peppers back ground & visited with several others who owned her ancestors that shared my opinion on this coyote belief. Anyway hope it keeps working well for you & you have no coyotes races. Respectful Al

[Warner5]

Dewey wrote. "Dogs don't run coyotes naturally"

Dogs will compete for territory. It doesent really get much more natural than that.

After many years of hunting and watching your dogs work, you have learned to stop this before it starts. I normally agree with you Dewey, but not on this one. Good nite. . John.

[coastrangecathunting]

I would suspect Al and Jon are talking about males being this way . I have 2 males right now that are that age . I have not had ringer run a yote in over a year. The spring is here so I guess I will find out pretty quick who is right on this one . I would say ringer is the most broke young dog I have ever had . I have not even had a e collar on him in 6 month or longer.
The other male is out of your dogs dewey . I have had him for 5 month now . I have had him try to run 3 yotes. Seen the tracks in the snow and let him down . I think he will try again and if one ran across the road in front of my pickup I would say they all would run it . lol. Over the years I have been proven wrong to many times when I thought my dogs were broke.
jc

[muttman82]

maybe a little off subject but just wondering what you guys with more experience suggest about the age of the dog and using a shock collar, is it bad to start them off at young age with the shock collar ?

[dwalton]

A couple of things them I will try to explain why I feel dogs don't run coyotes naturally. First off there are no absolutes some dogs will run everything that has hair on it and can you believe it some people even bred for that. Each to their own. JC the dog that you are hunting the last five months is coming three. Do you think maybe he learned something before you started hunting him. If you are going to run coyotes with dogs it is more likely it will be in the first 4 months of the year. If you take a young hound and turn lose a coyote and a bobcat in front of him which do you think he will naturally run? Over 40 years ago when they open cougar season up I caught my first cougar in Oregon. An old lion hunter{ Joe Jackson} made the comment that I would have to watch my dogs because they would start running trash.Be it lion, bear or coon I had given them permission to run other game. As the years go by I see how true his statement was. If I raise a pup he has the obedience down and gets to smell and play with many dead bobcats before he is asked to hunt. Dogs love to run bobcats and pups started this way may never run anything but bobcats unless they get to run off game with another dog. I will be the first to say that these dogs are not broke they just don't run anything else until they are asked to by me or another dog. If you run a dog on bear, lion, coon and bobcat you are asking them to run everything. So now you have to correct them on the things you don't want them to run. If it is not broke don't fix is one of Tom Barnes favorite saying. If you dump a dog on a coyote track in the snow what do you expect him to do. He has been put on several cat tracks in the snow so as far as he see it this track is to be ran just like he did with the cats. Dumping them out on a deer or elk you see to break them, what are you telling them go run it or not to. Now you have to break them. It is amazing how confused we can keep a dog as we teach it what we want it to do. Everything we do we are teaching a dog. It would be good if we could see it from the dogs view not from our logic. Roland Wilson was who I learned more from than anyone early on about bobcat hunting. He only hunted two or three dogs most of the time. I have seen him lose them all and start over several times. He would road young dogs I would see them get flighty on some scent, he would roll down the widow and tell them no. He could look at a dog and tell what they were smelling by their actions. He had very little trouble running anything but what he wanted to run. Now I will say it again dogs don't run coyotes naturally, we teach them by letting them run with dogs that run coyotes, not letting them know that that is bad, letting them run everything or just by putting them on it thinking we are doing good. Jc and john Tim sold a young dog down your way awhile back, you know the one I mean I am sure. When he took the dog down he was set up with a trapped coyote which she passed the test. The new owner was very pleased how she would not take coyotes. Within a year she was running them with his dogs. That dog had never ran a coyote and was never set up and shocked on one. I have seen this happen time and time again through the years. We teach or allow our dogs to run coyote unknowingly. Most not all dogs if we look back we have put them in with dogs running coyote or have hissed them on tracks that were coyote unknowingly. Think about it I have for years and have had some dogs that were good at catching coyotes. It was always my fault by what I did or didn't do that caused the problem. Dewey

[dwalton]

Muttman: I start my pups on a shock collar at about 4 months. At the age when you call and they respond with I am busy get back to me. I use a 30 foot cord and treats to bring them to me, them tone and shock. This should be done over a few weeks. Go slow. Low shock. When I start walking a young dog I don't put a shock collar on them I will not shock for off game if needed until I am sure they know what is right. I try to never let them get started on off game. Just teach them to come when young. Dewey

[al baldwin]

Dewey, agree you can take an old hound that has been strait and put it with a trashy dog and if turned loose enough without correcting that trashy hound won/t be long before you are very apt to have two trashy hounds. Doing some thinking about the type hounds you prefer, slow starting. The slow starting hounds in my experience have been easier trained to run desired game. Simply because they are more apt to stay with the trained hounds and less apt to trash. Take a gamey hard hunting young hound and in my experience, man nor canine, had to teach that type hound to run a coyote. Agree no need to fix what is not broke. Taking a hound to a trapped coyote is no guarantee, the dog will or will not run a coyote. However, over the years I have used that, combined with letting a hound get to running a coyote good & hard, then use the ecollar to light them up all that way back to me & had good success stopping coyote running problems. Can recall more than one hound after using that method never ran a coyote for years and recall a couple that would let me know when a hot coyote track was near. True be best if one never has to use that method, but can sure tell you it has worked for me. I too, am a huge fan of never letting hounds get starting running trash & that kept me hunting alone a lot more than I DESIRED. To say that anyone can take a young hound and be sure by the way it acts what that young hound is starting, I have to doubt that. But heard Roland was a very good houndsman, sure you were blessed to hunt with him. Respectful Al

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

While this thread has gotten a little off topic, there is lots of good info to be gleamed from most of the Posts!

Broke Hound s are obtainable….as Dewey mentions,it is much easier to PREVENT trashing than to STOP it.

Young Hounds like Children want to do TWO main things in life:
#1 have fun.
#2 Please the Person/Persons in authority over them.

That having been said we are back to Reading and Communicating with your Hounds. We are currently starting 10 Pups (6 to 18 months old). While we Rig the Strike dogs after emptying them out, we will keep the juveniles out roading them till just before they begin to tire.

While roading, these youngsters are learning all sorts of things, what smells are like, where to smell (look for where a varmint has walked or sat around leaving a Scent signature, like the end of a culvert), how to move in cover, and many other things. Watching them closely and keeping an eye on the Old Dogs on top, as well as having what Pilots call “Situational Awareness” you can tell the youngster what is OK to smell and get excited over and what is not. Mostly this is done with a Stern Verbal Command that the Pup learned much earlier in its training that showed your displeasure with its action/behavior. A Tone is sometimes needed to reinforce the Verbal Command, but almost never a Shock.

Again the Well Bred and Properly Back grounded Pup/Hound wants to please you, not bring fire and brimstone down on themselves!

Now after we have had these Trainees on several Cat and they TRULY should KNOW what the Game of choice is, we will look for opportunities in REAL hunting situations to let them run off Game. If we see Deer, Coons, or a Yote cross the road we will put them down and road them across the Trash track. Our reaction and response is directly related to the individual’s personality and severity of the indiscretion. Ex. Are:

Rapid tail wagging and intense Posture will get a LOUD “Get out of there”.

Running excitedly back and forth across the road will get a Tone and a LOUD admonishment.

Giving Tongue/Barking at the Off game will get a light Zap and the Truck horn being blown.
Generally one or two of these sessions and Dads Youngsters will be Broke in Broke Company!

But this Ain’t BROKE!

Now Comes PRESSURE Broke. This involves finding someone running a Deer and seeing what happens when the Pups cover the barking dogs, or borrowing a Yote Hound from someone and going to a Yote Pen (these are things that are easy for us as running deer is legal here in the South and Yote/Fox pens are popular). If one of the Trainees covers dogs barking on off Game and does not do and immediate about face and head to the Truck, a single long Tone is given. If the Hound should give tongue/barks at the Off Game a 2 sec shock is given on a setting appropriate to the Hounds personality and/or the distance to the Hound (with the new ALPHA distances is seldom an issue and the level of correction can be preset for the individual Hound’s personality).

Now Broke Hounds running a Yote…..well that is something that Bobcat Hunters across Texas and the Southeast deal with each February thru April. We theorize that is Female Coyotes in heat. Old Broke Hounds that will melt down when they smell a Yote any other time, may take one of these “Soiled Dove Yotes” when the track is HOT and run it to CATCH it. It does not happen often but anyone who has not had it happen to them is either darn Lucky or Ain’t in the woods often! Correction for these needs to be SWIFT and SURE! When returning to the truck, Hounds can be quite comical in their expressions…..kind of like “I don’t know what happened Boss, the Devil must have made me do it”.

Now again, Well-bred Hounds want to PLEASE their master. We have seen old retired Hounds of Dad’s who were dead Broke….Broke as Broke can be, go to a retirement home with a Great, Caring individual who was not a Houndsman. This Hound when repeatedly exposed to Hounds running off game and NO Correction being made to the transgressors, would decide “OH! my New boss wants me to run this Coon, Yote, or Fox" and stop coming back to the Truck and start to run this Off Game….it is what it thinks the Boss wants.

This should show you that you are always COMMUNICATING with your Hounds, even by omission!

Enough rattling now, these are just things we have found. Again I agree with almost all of the above Posts, all by Good Houndsmen!

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

Buddyw's new search engine is nice. Look towards the bottom of this page and you will find several very good threads along these same lines!

Here is a great quote from John Wick:

"After you gain experience and knowledge about how dogs think and learn, never be afraid to be innovative, and cautiously try something that you dream up which totally makes sense to you. That’s how all improvements are made. Some trainer comes up with a theory many others doubt, but the thinker proves it works. Ten or twenty years later most folks are successfully using it, and they all claim they’re the one who thought of it first. Smiles
See you next month to share more practical E-collar tips."
John Wick

This quote came from this thread
http://biggamehoundsmen.com/forum/great ... 13231.html

http://biggamehoundsmen.com/forum/e-col ... 28561.html

http://biggamehoundsmen.com/forum/garmi ... 34989.html

[JoeJones252]

Just my two cents and im not seasoned in this im just starting out but i agree with dewey i put my dogs on a lot of bear and had very little trash issue. My trail dog was extremely green (an ex coondog) he had only been on bear for a few weeks but after 15 bear or so he got the idea that this is what i wanted him to run. I even set him up on a deer he checked and left too find the correct game. I believe if you dont incite a trash issue and show your dog plenty of correct game wether it be bear/bobcat/coon etc you will not have nearly the problems as starting a dog on undesirable game. Im must say dogs will eventually trash i have heard of some of the best d.ogs that had never run a deer get a wild hair up its @$$ and burn one up. As far as shocking intensity goes to the guy that started this post my shocker has two settings: Tone and 6. I dont tolerate trashing at all. I have seen dogs that no matter how much you shock them they continue to trash but the majority of what ive worked with only required one or two doses of shock therapy to correct it. Once you really put it to em and give a good scolding mine usually get the idea. Anyway just my two cents take care and happy hunting

[horshur]

I don't know if this pertains to this thread but an observation of mine years ago sure made me think.....
I had a friend up for a fall bear hunt..I don't use my dogs on bear....anyway in the course of the day we ended up shooting a mule deer buck.....his dogs were pissing themselves out of fear when we loaded it in the back.
There is no way I could do that to my dogs they cannot have that sort of dread about smelling a deer as mule deer are on our place year round...
I don't use a E collar to break dogs off deer....I use it to re enforce the call to come when asked.....

anyway I just though it is worth thinking about.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Al Baldwin : To say that anyone can take a young hound and be sure by the way it acts what that young hound is starting, I have to doubt that.


Have been hunting, and just reading for the past few days. So I had plenty of time to think, and watch a couple of young dogs. And although I have known for years that the man Mr. Dewy spoke of in his post is 100% right in his evaluation. As to being able to tell what hounds are doing. As to their actions and voice. I did not learn it from the same man. I was lucky enough to have a dad that had a leg up on pretty much everything that seems to come up on BHS. Way ahead of his time I might add. And if anyone just starting out doesn't take any advice about anything I ever give. Please do take this one piece. Do not believe that you can't tell what a hound is doing by actions and voice. Because the above quote will be a boat anchor that will drown and hurt your hound hunting for a life time. No disrespect ment Al but I am sure this has hurt you thru the years. As far as the level of shock!! Please just use common sense, AND LETS TRY NOT TO OVER THINK THIS STUFF!



Take care, Willie

[twist]

Willy and Dewey I have tons of respect for both of you but let me say this with hounds and humans nothing is 100% all the time. Yes once a houndsmen spends a lot of time in the hills with his dog he gets to know and trust certain dogs. But to say one can read what young dogs are smelling by their actions 100% well I am on Als side. Every once in awhile I get to thinking I know hounds pretty well and then they reschool me pretty fast. Andy

[al baldwin]

Willie no offense taken, however I not referring to and older hound that one has grown familiar with. Referring to a young green hound, nosing a track on bare ground, sure there are signs one can look for, like working small logs and etc. But even then a young hound could be working squirrel scent. The key word is being SURE what that young hound was trailing. And no disrespect for anyone, but, I gave up the theory that anyone could be certain what a pack of hounds was running by listening to their voice. And know after realizing that, it help make me a better houndman, instead of holding me back. Realized if things were not sounding correct, best get my self in a position to be sure what was going on. Sure, the fastest hound running behind barking very seldom ( hitchhiking ) is an indicator things may not be normal & there are other indicators, such as the way certain critters run & etc. Over time I saw too many races were good houndsmen thought they knew what the quarry was, only to be very surprised! And when I talk about stopping a coyote running problem, not referring to a pack that has ran coyote their whole life, speaking of a cat hound pack that got a little sidetracked and needed a stern reminder not to be joining in with that two year old, that decides a hot coyote is more fun than a cold cat track. And anyone who has cat hunted in this area & says they have never had to correct that problem, is either inexperienced, lucky or not being truthful. As for shooting deer and hauling them home with the hounds, there was a couple houndmen here who made that a practice. And yes those cat hounds would be very spooked, but it never stopped them from catching the next cat they ran, infact one of them stated he used it as part of his deer breaking routine. I write my opinions & experiences so young hunters can have two points of view to help them. Respectful Al