BigGameHoundsmen.com

Well said Trueblue, My wife and kids always hunted with me when I was really hunting hard.
My kids are grown now and care nothing about hound hunting. Wore them out too young. If I could go back, would definitely change things. My wife and I are still addicted so that is a plus.
Keep it as a hobby and have fun, life is short.
By the way, where is Houddawg? Is he still wearing SPANDEX? Kinda miss reading his post.

I, too, think Trueblue summed it up pretty good. I think Davids cat hunter categories do not come across as offensive because, to me, they are written so that one may evaluate themselves and set goals for themselves as cat hunters and not in a manner that suggests comparing ones self to others. Personally, I think when a person gets into the "measuring contest" they have lost exactly what it is that I hunt for now days. I've culled much better dogs than I am hunting right now but, honestly, I think I'm having twice as much fun now days and catching a tenth of the game. If I could add anything to Davids categories, I would say that, when you take perspective into account, the levels can change drastically. I would also say there is a level 5. A few guys fit into the level 4 category and fit quite well but some of them look at it as a job or contest. As mentioned before, addicted is a word that comes to mind along with obsessed. Then you have guy who looks forward to every single hunt with a twinkle in his eye. Not because he has to get numbers or fur or because he has to make dogs but simply because he loves what he is doing. At times, he appreciates getting beat more than catching the cat. He looks at every day in the woods as a success despite what is on the stretcher. This list goes on and on but you get the idea. Personally, I have hunted with two people like that. Both kept their family life above their hounds and both have had the best dogs I've been around. To me, that is level 5.

Lots of cat hunters on here from different parts of the country, so lots of different variables depending on where you are from. But lets just say we are all from the same region. With EVERTHING EQUAL. Where then does your different level of cat hunters into play? In my opinion, I think it will all boil down to the man who can best read his dogs and knows exactly what is going on from first bark to last bark on a track. The better you can read your dogs the higher level you will have and also catch more game.
I have also seen hunters that has hunted for 30 or more years and still didn't have a clue what their dog was doing on track, just didn't have the gift to be able to read what a dog was doing. And I do believe it is a gift or "God given Talent". Some are just more gifted than others thus being your higher levels of a dog man.
JC made a comment about time doesn't have anything to do with it. I think I would have to disagree with that. I like to think that I can learn something from each hunt I make. Maybe something i've never seen before in the woods or maybe something new about one of the dogs within my pack. But....i believe it is a never ending "learning process". Just my thoughts on the subject. JC, didn't mean to offend you in any way, just stating my opinion. Happy trails to all.
Robbie

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Trueblue wrote:I think it was the great HOUNDAWG that once said a man told him that he didn't care much for houndsmen. Why not ? To which he replied,"never had much respect for a man who's life is defined by a pack of dogs." I read that quote a long time ago but it stuck with me,probably because it hit home pretty hard.Running hounds when you have a family is a balancing act like walking a tight rope,you take too many missteps and the results are going to be catastrophic both for you and the people who you love.Chasing these hounds can easily become an addiction and I literally mean that and it can be just as detrimental to a family as any other kind of addiction.I got a hunch that the fella who made that statement above had probably seen some families go down the drain over a pack of dogs.I know I have seen it before.I know that in my own personal situation my family has made A LOT of sacrifices so I can chase my obsession.Was it fair to them ? Not really.They have rarely complained but I am positive that there is some unspoken resentment there.Made many selfish choices over the years and as I get older and the years go by I'm learning to regret my immaturity and lack of consideration for others over years gone by.Unfortunately some of us get smart too late.Somewhere along the line,if a guy ain't careful,this hound game can switch from being a hobby and a source of recreation to being an addiction and we all know how things can change when something goes from recreational use to an addiction.Takes a man with a solid sense of balance to walk the line.

Trueblue, A lot of wisdom in what you said above.
I've always had a lot of respect for the guys that can hold it all together, work, family, pay their bills and still catch their choice of game when they can hunt.
But then sometimes it's just the family being good.
I've often thought that this hounding could be an addiction. I want balance in hounds and respect it in hunters.

Ker_man wrote:

Trueblue wrote:I think it was the great HOUNDAWG that once said a man told him that he didn't care much for houndsmen. Why not ? To which he replied,"never had much respect for a man who's life is defined by a pack of dogs." I read that quote a long time ago but it stuck with me,probably because it hit home pretty hard.Running hounds when you have a family is a balancing act like walking a tight rope,you take too many missteps and the results are going to be catastrophic both for you and the people who you love.Chasing these hounds can easily become an addiction and I literally mean that and it can be just as detrimental to a family as any other kind of addiction.I got a hunch that the fella who made that statement above had probably seen some families go down the drain over a pack of dogs.I know I have seen it before.I know that in my own personal situation my family has made A LOT of sacrifices so I can chase my obsession.Was it fair to them ? Not really.They have rarely complained but I am positive that there is some unspoken resentment there.Made many selfish choices over the years and as I get older and the years go by I'm learning to regret my immaturity and lack of consideration for others over years gone by.Unfortunately some of us get smart too late.Somewhere along the line,if a guy ain't careful,this hound game can switch from being a hobby and a source of recreation to being an addiction and we all know how things can change when something goes from recreational use to an addiction.Takes a man with a solid sense of balance to walk the line.

Trueblue, A lot of wisdom in what you said above.
I've always had a lot of respect for the guys that can hold it all together, work, family, pay their bills and still catch their choice of game when they can hunt.
But then sometimes it's just the family being good.
I've often thought that this hounding could be an addiction. I want balance in hounds and respect it in hunters.

X2
Robbie

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[quote="South Texan"]Lots of cat hunters on here from different parts of the country, so lots of different variables depending on where you are from. But lets just say we are all from the same region. With EVERTHING EQUAL. Where then does your different level of cat hunters come into play? In my opinion, I think it will all boil down to the man who can best read his dogs and knows exactly what is going on from first bark to last bark on a track. The better you can read your dogs the higher level you will have and also catch more game.
I have also seen hunters that has hunted for 30 or more years and still didn't have a clue what their dog was doing on track, just didn't have the gift to be able to read what a dog was doing. And I do believe it is a gift or "God given Talent". Some are just more gifted than others thus being your higher levels of a dog man.
JC made a comment about time doesn't have anything to do with it. I think I would have to disagree with that. I like to think that I can learn something from each hunt I make. Maybe something i've never seen before in the woods or maybe something new about one of the dogs within my pack. But....i believe it is a never ending "learning process". Just my thoughts on the subject. JC, didn't mean to offend you in any way, just stating my opinion. Happy trails to all.
Robbie





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I can't add anything else!!!!


Take care, Willie

Good post, lots good reading. I knew when my dogs were trailing, jumped, treed & etc. Bobcat & grey fox ran so much alike here very hard to be sure between those two. Coyote at times would also run like a bobcat when first jumped, by the time they decided to move couple zip codes away, In these remote hell holes very hard to correct before the e-collar. Bear could be very hard to tell from a coyote race at times. Have seen races where hunters had decided their bear hounds had taken a yote on them only to tree a 90 lb. bear hours later. Recall very well being sent town into a big hole with a shotgun to kill a coyote after a race that had covered a lot of ground and lasted for hours, only to find a bear in a low tree with his sides going in and out as if someone was playing an accordion. Have trailed lion, jumped & treed them, some very good houndmen thought we were trailing a bobcat. Once decided to target cat only found it easier to detect any off races. If there are hunters who can be positive when a hound barks what they are trailing, I have never hunted with one. And no disrespect meant towards anyone. Have I stopped races after deciding off game, without actually seeing tracks or the quarry? Sure have. Could I be 100% certain? Sure could not. Did I ever make a mistake? Probably! But there are times when one has to trust his instincts and I did. Recall a couple years ago, partner & I hounds had been running a track for a couple hrs, covering more open ground at times than a self respecting bob cat should. Partner kept thinking, maybe a yote. We had not had a off race in a long time & I kept saying lets be sure. Finally he said next time thru a cutover I/m stopping my dogs & I agreed. Lucky the hounds came out of the brush and down a mud road for a short ways. We hurried as fast as a couple old guys could to that road about 1/4 mile away. Right in the center of all those dog tracks was a very plain set of fresh bobcat tracks. Does that make me a good cat hunter or hound man? Heck no I just had trust in that pack & especially a flag tailed walker named Buddy, that looks as much running dog as any thing the Clays had in their videos. Fact is my hunting friend is a better houndman than I. Al

Nolte wrote:These are levels I've witnessed here in bobcat starved WI.
1. Guys who talk about bobcat hunting.
2. Guys who go bobcat hunting and struggle.
3. Guys who catch some cats with a special dog that's got it.
4. Guys who can catch cats regardless of what dogs they've got (woodsman).
5. Guys who have had/trained multiple special dogs.

There aren't many that reside in 5 and just a handfull more in 4. You get guys in both 4 & 5 and they could probably catch cats anywhere given time.

In WI, conditions are the great equalizer. Given the right conditions any coon or bear dog can catch a cat. Given the wrong conditions a special dog can look pretty average.

Nolte,

I like that set of five for this area of the country. I think if David's book title was, "The WI Bobcat Dog" he would have made a list very similar to yours. Nice pickup on the "Woodsman". I don't know if there are a pile of similar people in other parts of the country because I have not spent enough time in the other parts of the country to find their Woodsmen. I'm going to guess that the Woodsmen are in every state as it seems to be a rare condition of human nature as opposed to something that is just learned by any joe-blow. Now if you've got a woodsman who also has a knack for selecting and training dogs and has the blessings of David's CAT-4 hunter...look out!!! Unfortunately I can not claim to be in that CATegory with a >1yr. old daughter and other family duties...or rather I choose not to be and anyway, as you know we do not have the cat population to get there. Anyhow, I like your list good thinking!

Mr. Al,
I can sure see what your talking about. It would be harder to read your dogs when they are allowed to run more than one critter. I would probably get so caught up in trying to decide what they were running I probably wouldn't do a very god job of monitering the dogs on the track. I get to caught up in my little world. I just think everyone has straight cat dogs. That's all I have run (straight cats) for about 30 years now. Since about 1987 I have been blessed enough to have at least 3 or 4 dogs within my pack that I trust, probably as much as you trusted your Buddy dog. So...when I could hear those 3 or 4 dogs all putting in on a trail, I was about 99% sure of what I was trailing on. Sure makes it easier having a few solid dogs in the pack.
Earlier I spoke of being able to read your dogs. Sometimes I don't do a very good job of explaining myself. I didn't mean just knowing when they are trailing, jumped, or running, ect. I was referring to knowing when a certain dog might be holding the others back while trailing (getting hung-up on track, over barking, or going back on track to a certain place the track smells stronger). Maybe a dog within the pack that is over running a track (running track) and pulling the dogs forward, then somebody has got to go back and line the track back out. Maybe a dog that's bumping a tree and causing your other dogs to false tree. These are a few examples of things we have to look for while our dogs are working a trail and then correct accordingly. Lots of dogs come up with faults during their training career but if caught & corrected it can be stopped before it becomes a habit. When we can reconize these faults early & get them corrected, I think we are jumping up on the tot'em pole as to being a little better houndsmen.
Mr. Al, I think you are higher on that tot'em pole than you think. Thanks
Robbie

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I guess my time comment might have been a little off. Some people go out once or twice a week . lets say 60 times a year. Some people go out 4 or 5 times a week . lets say 200 to 250 times a year. if the first guy has hunted for 20 yrs and the second guy for 5 yrs who has more experience? If there is 1 thing I have learned in my life it is not what u do it is how u do it. Like some one said above , reading a dog is the number one thing when it comes to cathunting. I have been hunting dogs my whole life and while hunting I see things the dogs do that the person next to me doesn't notice. It might be a slight glance to say there is a deer up there. It might be a little quicker gate in there stride because they caught just a hint of cat scent. Dogs will tell u everything if u pay attention. I cant put myself on a scale of 1 to 10 but I know I could be better. I have put on here before I don't like dogs that bark a lot. The reason for that is it makes it harder to tell what is going on. If a dog is flat out jumped than they can bark all they want to. But if there is a 10 second lose than I want them shut up for 12 seconds. lol. Great post dewey hope I didn't get sidetracked.

jc

al baldwin wrote:Good post, lots good reading. I knew when my dogs were trailing, jumped, treed & etc. Bobcat & grey fox ran so much alike here very hard to be sure between those two. Coyote at times would also run like a bobcat when first jumped, by the time they decided to move couple zip codes away, In these remote hell holes very hard to correct before the e-collar. Bear could be very hard to tell from a coyote race at times. Have seen races where hunters had decided their bear hounds had taken a yote on them only to tree a 90 lb. bear hours later. Recall very well being sent town into a big hole with a shotgun to kill a coyote after a race that had covered a lot of ground and lasted for hours, only to find a bear in a low tree with his sides going in and out as if someone was playing an accordion. Have trailed lion, jumped & treed them, some very good houndmen thought we were trailing a bobcat. Once decided to target cat only found it easier to detect any off races. If there are hunters who can be positive when a hound barks what they are trailing, I have never hunted with one. And no disrespect meant towards anyone. Have I stopped races after deciding off game, without actually seeing tracks or the quarry? Sure have. Could I be 100% certain? Sure could not. Did I ever make a mistake? Probably! But there are times when one has to trust his instincts and I did. Recall a couple years ago, partner & I hounds had been running a track for a couple hrs, covering more open ground at times than a self respecting bob cat should. Partner kept thinking, maybe a yote. We had not had a off race in a long time & I kept saying lets be sure. Finally he said next time thru a cutover I/m stopping my dogs & I agreed. Lucky the hounds came out of the brush and down a mud road for a short ways. We hurried as fast as a couple old guys could to that road about half mile away. Right in the center of all those dog tracks was a very plain set of fresh bobcat tracks. Does that make me a good cat hunter or hound man? Heck no I just had trust in that pack & especially a flag tailed walker named Buddy, that looks as much running dog as any thing the Clays had in their videos. Fact is my hunting friend is a better houndman than me. Al

South Texan wrote:Mr. Al,
I can sure see what your talking about. It would be harder to read your dogs when they are allowed to run more than one critter. I would probably get so caught up in trying to decide what they were running I probably wouldn't do a very god job of monitering the dogs on the track. I get to caught up in my little world. I just think everyone has straight cat dogs. That's all I have run (straight cats) for about 30 years now. Since about 1987 I have been blessed enough to have at least 3 or 4 dogs within my pack that I trust, probably as much as you trusted your Buddy dog. So...when I could hear those 3 or 4 dogs all putting in on a trail, I was about 99% sure of what I was trailing on. Sure makes it easier having a few solid dogs in the pack.
Earlier I spoke of being able to read your dogs. Sometimes I don't do a very good job of explaining myself. I didn't mean just knowing when they are trailing, jumped, or running, ect. I was referring to knowing when a certain dog might be holding the others back while trailing (getting hung-up on track, over barking, or going back on track to a certain place the track smells stronger). Maybe a dog within the pack that is over running a track (running track) and pulling the dogs forward, then somebody has got to go back and line the track back out. Maybe a dog that's bumping a tree and causing your other dogs to false tree. These are a few examples of things we have to look for while our dogs are working a trail and then correct accordingly. Lots of dogs come up with faults during their training career but if caught & corrected it can be stopped before it becomes a habit. When we can reconize these faults early & get them corrected, I think we are jumping up on the tot'em pole as to being a little better houndsmen.
Mr. Al, I think you are higher on that tot'em pole than you think. Thanks
Robbie

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There are a couple gems right there....I don't run bobcats on purpose but free cast for lions on mules in roadless areas but these two posts sum it up pretty well.. I had a famous lion hunter tell me you have to learn how to read those dogs...add to that riding 15 mile circles 5 or 6 days in a row before you cross a runnable track...you better be able to tell what's going on..

Thanks.

Big N' Blue wrote:Well said Trueblue, My wife and kids always hunted with me when I was really hunting hard.
My kids are grown now and care nothing about hound hunting. Wore them out too young. If I could go back, would definitely change things. My wife and I are still addicted so that is a plus.
Keep it as a hobby and have fun, life is short.

This is a powerful thread, but to me the most powerful posts on the thread are along the lines of Big N' Blues post above, and what CJC was pointing out in the families of the "4th Degree".

My book is written for new hunters or those thinking about it. It is bobcat hunting 101. This thread is more for those studying for their masters degree or PHD.

There is a part of me that is fearful that my book will aid folks in becoming irresponsible to their families and society in general. If it does that it will be my greatest failure in all of life. My hope and prayer is that folks will stumble on the thread of deeper truth that dives down under and then comes up for air every once in awhile through the book. That deeper truth has been pointed out in this thread and I hope no one misses it. That deeper truth is that if you dont find your identity in something a lot more powerful than dogs, you will eventually destroy yourself and those you love. That is why God was pretty emphatic when he said "You shall have no other gods before me." He said that because he does not want you to destroy yourself and those you love. He wants you to have a good full life of giving life to your children and those around you, rather than sucking life out of them.

You guys stirred the surface of a deep ocean. There are a lot of reasons we are the way we are. I beleive many of them are genetic. We are not that different than dogs in many ways. Some of them have to do with our environment, same as dogs. But unlike dogs, we can observe ourselves and evaluate our own behavior and judge between good and evil. It is really good to see us trying to discover what these influences are and evaluating them. There are really great reasons for hunting that will build us up, give us life and give life to all those around us. And there are some reasons that just steal kill and destroy. Maybe there are some nuetral reasons, but I dont think so. As one man from Minnesota said "He who is not busy being born is busy dying". Hopefully we are busy being born. Thanks for the great insights on here. Dewey told me a long time ago that bobcat hunting is a "thinking man's game". It is really fun to be among thinkers.

Press on.

Hey Guys,
I am fairly new to this site so I don't know hardly anyone, yet. I hope to get to know a lot of you. I hunted with hounds in the 70's and early 80's. I loved it so much. Didn't catch many cats, ran some bears and caught coons. I loved it no matter how the hunt ended. I then started raising kids and my dogs started spending more time on the chain than hunting. Every hound deserves to hunt and I wasn't doing that. I had a very good strike dog that a good friend helped me with. His name was Elmer Blankenship. One of the best guys I knew. Anyway, I am a fishing guide here in Oregon and I own a hunting outfit in Wyoming. I am saying all of this because after reading this post (or whatever these are called) (I am not a great computer guy) I jsut sense so much compition in it abut hunting sith hounds. Guys, I have learned through the years of having hounds years ago and most of my hunting time was spent finding my dogs than hunting, that a person like Elmer could not possible love what he was doing more than I loved it and he put a lot of cats in the tree. Having my guide service, we have had some great times without great success. I have seen tears from dads and sons and husbands and wives and friends from an animal taken that could not have been more joy if it had been a world record. I relate hunting and especially hound hunting like playing my guitar. I can not or ever will play as good as Willie Nelson but when I am playing around a campfire or in my living room or at the bunkhouse, I am having just as much enjoyment. A guy that is hunting 2 days a week is having as mch fun when he is out that the guy hunting 6 days a week and I can argue that maybe the guy hunting 2 days a week is enjoying it more. I think that hubnters need to stick together and stop the compition with each other. Guys that have the top dogs, help the one's that are learning. I think that is why I guide. I love watching and being part of the joy of someone else. I had a guy here in Oregon help me with a couple dogs and I can't tell you how great that was. Not only did he help me but I had the joy of being out with one of the best. Hunting is a lot different than it was when I was a young guy running through the hills with my dogs. I hope this makes sense to you. Good luckj hunting and take a kid with you on your next one.

Jon, I enjoyed your post and you have some really important points. I will have to let you know something I have noticed though. Of all the bobcat hunters I know of, including myself, I have only met one who was not obviously (to me) competitive in some way. I just dont even know how a person could become a successful bobcat hunter unless they are trying to win in some way.

It takes a tremendous amount of drive to become a successful bobcat hunter. The only exceptions might be those that are lucky enough to just tag along with a successful hunter. In my experience, those folks dont usually keep up the sport once that type of support is gone. Certainly every bobcat hunter I know of that went out there and trained a dog up into a bobcat dog without that kind of support was a VERY competitive type of person. (Including myself). I did not really think of myself as competing with other people, yet, every hunt was competition against all the forces that existed only to keep me from success. The most obvious example is the bobcat himself. He was constantly proving himself a better man than me, and I just could not rest until I proved him wrong. I honestly think that the sport is so difficult for someone who does not get it handed to them, that they absolutely have to be competitive to succeed.

I would be interested in what others think about that. If there is a successful bobcat hunter out there who has no feeling of wanting to win once in awhile I would be very interested in hearing from you.

I think competition can be a negative thing, but I dont think that it is inherently negative. I think it is nuetral and the heart of the competitor defines the goodness or badness of it. Again, if the person does not depend on the sport for his identity, I think his sense of competition is healthy. If he is secure in who he is, there would never be a need for him to "cheat", for example, to give the "appearance" to himself or others that he is a winner.

We all know of someone who was an amazing competitor in something but could help others to become better at the same thing. He is secure enough in finding his identity in somethiing much bigger and more powerful. This can be as simple as having had parents who deeply loved him and nurtured him and met all his emotional needs as a child. This includes his need for lots and lots of time with his father who is focused on him and not just present and distracted.

Even his ideas of God's great love for him are founded in his experience with his own devoted dad. It is easy for him to envision God loving him because of the way his own father loved him. People who grow up with that kind of devotion can compete without fear. They really have no need to prove their worth to any one, because they already fully understand their worth as defined by their father's love for them. And this is particularly true of him who beleives that the Creator of the Universe would rather die than to live without him. And it is not that hard for him to beleive this because of the amazing sacrifices his own earthly father made for him.

This is my opinion, and I am interested in others. I think competition has been responsible for most advances in our society, including advances in our own sport. As far as I can figure out, Sonny Turner was one of the first to travel east and bring back a fox dog to use on his bobcat and gray fox. Do you think he had no sense of competiton in doing that? Do you think those that followed his example had no sense of competition? Do you think those planning crosses right now to produce the best bobcat dogs to ever draw a breath have no sense of competition? I myself appreciate what competition has produced in my favorite sport, and in my own life. The key is knowing who we are. And we are way more than bobcat hunters.

Hey David,
Very well put. I look forward to meeting you one of these days. You are right about the compition. I may have worded it it wrong. Years ago before I started guidingfishing trips here in Oregon, I was fishing on a river and had a weel known guide come up to me like the bull of the woods and say, "I guess your my compition now. I want you to know I am not putting up with any %#*% on the river." I told him to lighten up. The only compitionI have is the salmon below me. What you say about people getting there identity from hunting is in a bad way from the start and there is lot more going on than hunting.
Being inthe outdoor industry as long as I have, I have just seen too much of the negative competition and that can ruin the whole experience. When I was on teh footbal field there was no one that hated loosing more than me but that was against my opponents not my team mates. If you and I hunted together, you would be a team mate the cat would be the opponent. Good luck on your hunts and maybe see you at the gathering.