BigGameHoundsmen.com

Ker_man wrote:LOL David, I did not mean to crash the cat hunter's party. I realize that it is a different type of dog and a whole other game. I have often thought when a hound makes it clear that it won't stick with a bxxr that it might just be too smart. I won't mention courage

You should mention courage. Hmm, well I guess you kind of did mention courage.

There are places where a bobcat dogs must desire and enjoy conflict. We have to have it in at least one dog in the upper midwest or we will not stop our cats on the ground. Dogs will not close the gap on a ground hugging cat if they do not desire that conflict. We need intellegent dogs with grit. In areas where the cats usually climb out of site of the dogs, this is not needed. But we need an intellegent dog with grit. And they exist. If you dont beleive me watch some of these cow bred border collies. I knew of one that would take hold of a bulls nose on command and not let go until told to do so. There are places to find both. We need to find them for out here.

[quote="david"][ But we need an intellegent dog with grit. And they do exist.
Yes David & that is what a good bay dog is, a hound that will bay a bear tight & live to an older age, allowing good hunters who will work hard to get in & poke a hole in a bear. I believe you underestimate the intelligents of good bear hounds. Not referring to those that never learn they can not eat a bear alive. Al

Interesting comments. You know, something I've noticed is that the "smartest" dogs I've kept almost always tend to be the ones lacking in most other traits I look for and value.

Curious business.

My Boomer dog is a real good example.... really not much for nose power, wasn't terribly fast and in fact probably too fast for the ability he was born with when he was younger (some may not understand what I mean)....BUT....he did manage to work his way up the pecking order to be a hound I've depended on heavily over the last number of years.
He's appears to be a "smart" dog (for a hound anyway) within the confines of what we describe as hunting with a pack of hounds.

I don't breed for Boomer's though....the other traits I seek are more important (and visible) to me that the one intangible trait he brings to the table.
That said ....I won't turn away a hound like him that sneeks up on me either

i know exactly the type hound your talking about norwestwer the smartest hound i ever owned was this type hound . he was a terrible reproducer to boot.his brains took him alot further than anything .at 3and half months old he started treeing coons without a big dog all i had done was let him play with a coon tail couple times. i just had him down by the shoreline out for a walk when he threw his nose to the ground and took off puppy barking he started treeing on this big spruce i didnt know what he was doing as i hadnt seen the game and neither did he.to my amazement there was the coon .i shot it down to him after i went back to the truck and got a gun. he started rigging instantly after that,he became a layup dog to boot by his ripe old age of 1 he knew how to cover a piece of woods then come back and look at me as if to say next. i killed thousands of coon with him . i got into bear hunting and tried to switch him only to find that he lacked in grit mental toughness on bear . also bred him twice to different females that resulted in pups that didnt measure up .live and learn.i sold him at 5 years old on trial to some cat hunters who killed 17 bobcat that winter with him . he treed layup bobcat in heavy timber to boot for them snow with no bobcat tracks around.they had never seen a dog do that.the dog was also the worst theif i had ever seen. butter, pot roasts you name for food the punishment was worth it to him .if i left him home to hunt a pup he would grab my hat only off the hat rack and shred it . he only did this for that reason.at first i thought it was coincidence but after the 15th hat and only if i took another dog hunting it all added up.champ will always be remembered as one smart hound by all that new him.my start dog for bear i have now is no scholar ,just seems to have the right tools if that makes sense to be a great little beardog .

I remember sitting in class in high school. The teacher would explain some new concept and I would be thinking "OK, I got it already!" But not everybody did. The teacher would go over it again, slower this time. Then answer a bunch of questions and go over it again and again.

They lost me right away. Extreme boredom, combined with an aversion to being cooped up indoors made it tough for me to get through high school and stay out of trouble.

Not that I am smart. I have been outsmarted by dogs often enough to keep me humble. Smart dogs run in to the same kind of trouble as smart kids in school.

Take Lovey. One spot I run hare in has a long stretch that is less than 100 yards wide. The first few times she ran a hare through here, Lovey thought "OK, I got it already!" Now she just runs in a straight line until she hits the track way ahead of the rest of the "slower" dogs. This ends in a badly strung out pack

Dusty learned early on that deer are much easier and more exciting to chase than hare. It only took one shocking for him to learn that he needed to be smarter than the a****ole with the transmitter. Can't tell you how many times I've listened to a good hare race for hours, only to find the "hare" heading out of the country, and out of shocking range. Always came back with a "Wasn't me boss!!" look on his face. He's still not broke, but he is pretty careful.

No, smarter isn't always better.

I think a dog with brains gets better every time its turned out, anyway thats what I look for in up coming dogs if they seem to be rockstars as a pup dosen't always meen that dog will make it in my pack, if they progress every time out that what turns my cranck.

tigger wrote:I think a dog with brains gets better every time its turned out, anyway thats what I look for in up coming dogs if they seem to be rockstars as a pup dosen't always meen that dog will make it in my pack, if they progress every time out that what turns my cranck.

"Progress every time out",boy that would be a smart dog.Never had one of those before.Here's how most of mine go.
Day 1...progress
Day 2...progress
Day 3...you stupid animal what is wrong with you
Day 4...maybe a little progress
Day 5...Oh my God ! I love this dog
Day 6...I'm glad no one is here to watch you besides me cuz it would be embarrassing...argh
Day 7...I don't think I could get a nickel for this dog
Day 8.. well maybe there is still hope here
Day 9...I knew there was a reason I kept this dog
Day 10..Good boy !
And the roller coaster ride goes on.

For me it's brains, I think you have to have brains to make everything else work.
David, my wife's family raised boarder collies for years. when we were teenagers my wife had one that she showed in 4h. She had that dog trained just like the one you were talking about. She could throw 10 different colored balls out in the yard and tell the dog which ball to fetch according to color and the dog would retrieve that ball.
Dewey, the two pups that I got from Tim P. must have gotten some of Bozos brains, i had both pups trained to come really well at three months old, now when I let them out and then go to put them away they run away cause they know I'm going to put them back in the kennel, I need to change my training technique .

Tim: You are at the age that tone training comes in. About 3 to 4 months [ preteen in the human race] you will see the pups look at you and say I'm busy right now get back to me later. That is the time to get check cord, treats and collar for beginning tone training.Good luck with them they should be good ones. Dewey

You all watched to many episodes of Lassie when you were younger. The Border collie that went after the balls was conditioned by repetition as to which ball to go after. It was conditioned to go after the unrecognized ball also. If you think a dog can reason take Lassie out in the back yard put a gun to there head and cock it. Now if a dog could reason at all it would run away. Having seen what happens to a cat when you cock the gun. Some dogs like Border collies are easier to condition so we call them smart dogs. We all have seen dogs do things that we think must be reasoning but the fact is it is either instinct (genetics) or conditioning. One of my pups had the chain pull through the lap link down at the bottom by the swivel. The next day she was out there grabbing the swivel and it looked like she was trying to lift her chain over its steak like she knew how she had gotten away. Did she reason this out ? No she was playing with the new shiny lap link ( instinct). It is instinct for a dog to want to be free and escape. So when they accidently work the latch on the dog kennel they get conditioned that they get free buy working the latch. Humans are the only animals that can reason, despite what the Liberal media, Hollywood and HSUS would have you think.

Dang. have to return those border collies. Al

Gosh! This thread is really getting some good responses and information for us to ponder!

Thanks to Perk for the "English" lesson...I never could keep those Nouns, Pronouns, Adjectives, and Adverbs straight. But his points were right on with our way of thinking!

Mr. Beggs writes: " Some dogs like Border collies are easier to condition so we call them smart dogs. We all have seen dogs do things that we think must be reasoning but the fact is it is either instinct (genetics) or conditioning."

Sir, Is not that Intelligence?

Larry, your wrong. I mean that respectfully. Are you a bear hunter?

You can call it intelligence or smart if you want. I have done that myself. But I wouldn't call it the ability to reason. Dan I am definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed. I have been wrong a lot in my life. And I may be wrong now. I have been a bear hunter. I am currently a cat hunter. Maybe not a good one. Dad had some dogs that I think most cat hunters would have been proud to own(Easy to brag on dead dogs). But I think the ability to reason in exclusively a human trait. Might not be one that I am very good at. But I have not seen anything in a lifetime of hunting hounds that I thought proved otherwise. We had a dog when I was young named Cleo. Very fast dog on cat and bear both. Very pleasant dog to be around. Would bay a bear hard without help if it was the right bear. Not a bear dog but at times you would have thought she was. She was a cat dog. One summer I was treeing a bear just about every time I went to the woods. Every one was about a 60lb yearling. No doubt she was passing up older bear when she smelled them. I called her smart. But I believe she was conditioned from getting her but kicked to pass up the older bear. I just think it is wrong to apply this human attribute to animals. Pretty quick we wont be hunting any thing because they are all o much like us.

My dog has been getting shit for barking.he barks cuzz he is sure he is starving. He does not like getting in trouble...today he was pawing the dog dish instead of barking...he has also asked to be fed by gnashing or chomping his teeth......leopard walker cross.