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Without Snow, Charlie, Mark, and Mr. Robbie are "telling it like it is" in trying to train a Bobcat hound.

Great bunch of wisdom here. Even in snow conditions its a big plus I have often refered to it as monkey see monkey do system. Have seen where some believe doing it this way will not produce lead dogs just have to shake my head and smile. Andy

Andy I was thinking about what you wrote "Have seen where some believe doing it this way will not produce lead dogs."

But when that young pup starts putting it on the old dogs after about a year of hunting my hopes of that pup making a lead dog sure goes up. Then you start thinking maybe this pup might be that "special one".

All dogs are not leaders. If hunted solo, how do you know what you have when you don't have anything to compare'em to. Not saying that hunting a pup solo might build his self confidence but that don't necessarily make him a lead dog.

I have never hunted a pup solo in my life. When I start hunting them, they are thrown in with the old dogs and put on the ground. They are raised loose around the house and most of them around 3 or 4 months old start running rabbits. This is the only solo thing they get to do but I do believe this is a confidence builder for the pups. "They think they're good" until thrown in with the old dogs at around 6 months old, then they see what stiff competition really is. Some excels and make lead dogs, others just make helpers. My definition of lead dog is a do it all kind of dog. A dog that thinks he don't need any help and he doesn't even when hunted with top dogs.

But it's "every monkey to his own swing". Lead dogs can be made either way I guess. But I don't think anyone should say he has a lead dog until that dog has been hunted with stiff competition and see that their dog can pull his own weight under these circumstances.

Hope everyone's young dogs they are hunting right now makes that lead dog. Maybe that "Really special dog". Good luck to all.
Robbie


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Robby, you just said what i have been wanting to say but couldnt get it to come out right. Would the world record for the mile be as fast as it is if runners just ran against the clock and not other runners?

I would say the "me too" way of training (monkey see, monkey do) as the sole way of training is not the "best" way of training a good dog, but rather just an easy way. Great dogs are always hunting alone, whether in company or not. Putting a dog with good dogs for me is a part of the best way. Building a dogs mind the best way is through diversity of situations one exposes a dog to. From conditions to company, a dog will shine truer if it has been exposed to more scenarios. Hunting a young dog alone, for me, is a big part of making the total package as soon as possible.

All great athletes build a strong foundation of their total athletic abilities by training alone. They just don't run races and become great.

For all the young hunters new to getting into hounds. YOU DON'T NEED GOOD OR GREAT DOGS TO MAKE GOOD OR GREAT DOGS. You will also become a better houndman and know your dogs better if you if you rely on yourself to train and not a monkey. Many, many great dogs have been made without the help of another dog.

Robbie, that was very well said. Everyone needs to read your post a few times. Andy

X2 Robbie , yardsticks.

In my opinion a TRUE cat dog will find a way to get its own alone time by taking it from the other monkees. There are so many things a young dog learns from the monkees that we cant teach them or teach them as fast such as getting through or around obstacles. I think "me too" dogs are born and it takes a lot longer to pin it down on em when hunted alone. If a dog has the desire to run a critter down and catch it they will do it regardless of how many dogs are around em. YARDSTICKS!!!!!!!!

If a dog is content with following dogs my experience is they will be content following a cat too.

I must have misinterpreted the title of this thread. "Best way to train young dogs?" really means "how to measure a dogs abilities?"

In a top pack of dogs in ANY discipline, how much opportunity does a YOUNG prospect dog have to run out front, pick up tough loses or locate all by itself (and learn to do it better)??
My opinion is not very often. If it does then I would seriously re-evaluate your interpretation of "top pack of dogs".

South Texan wrote:Andy I was thinking about what you wrote "Have seen where some believe doing it this way will not produce lead dogs."

But when that young pup starts putting it on the old dogs after about a year of hunting my hopes of that pup making a lead dog sure goes up. Then you start thinking maybe this pup might be that "special one".

All dogs are not leaders. If hunted solo, how do you know what you have when you don't have anything to compare'em to. Not saying that hunting a pup solo might build his self confidence but that don't necessarily make him a lead dog.

I have never hunted a pup solo in my life. When I start hunting them, they are thrown in with the old dogs and put on the ground. They are raised loose around the house and most of them around 3 or 4 months old start running rabbits. This is the only solo thing they get to do but I do believe this is a confidence builder for the pups. "They think they're good" until thrown in with the old dogs at around 6 months old, then they see what stiff competition really is. Some excels and make lead dogs, others just make helpers. My definition of lead dog is a do it all kind of dog. A dog that thinks he don't need any help and he doesn't even when hunted with top dogs.

But it's "every monkey to his own swing". Lead dogs can be made either way I guess. But I don't think anyone should say he has a lead dog until that dog has been hunted with stiff competition and see that their dog can pull his own weight under these circumstances.

Hope everyone's young dogs they are hunting right now makes that lead dog. Maybe that "Really special dog". Good luck to all.
Robbie


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I believe that in discussing this topic we first need to define our terms.To me, the definition of a "lead dog" is a dog that is capable of getting it done by itself. This why most hunters use their most capable dog to start or lead with because they trust that he can get the job done better than the rest. It doesn't mean he is the fastest and always runs up front, it means that he is the most capable and reliable. Many guys hunt in a way where they use the dependable ONE to shoulder the majority of the work and it is understandable why. It is because this is the best recipe for success (game in the tree) in the short term as it reduces the possibility of screw ups by less dependable dogs, dogs that may even have the possibility of running non-target game.There are lots of variables that could be reason for them being less dependable.Now if your goal for the day when you go hunting is to put game in a tree then this is the most effective way to do it, but if your goal for the day is to train your young dogs to be the dependable one, then there are other more effective methods...in my opinion.Some guys go to the woods to put game in a tree and others go to the woods to train dogs.There is a difference.Sometimes you have to be willing to sacrifice short term success for long term gain. Giving the younger less dependable dogs the opportunity to shoulder some of the heavy lifting is not the most effective way to get game in the tree in the short term, but I believe it is the most effective way to encourage each and every dog to be a capable, dependable (lead dog) as soon as possible. Now I am a bear hunter so I usually don't hunt a dog solo but I can still tailor my hunting/training of young dogs in a way that gives them the opportunity to do much of the heavy lifting. I can use them to strike, give them opportunities to find and start those strikes, and then decide when,if, and how much help I might want to send them. My reason for doing this is because I want my young dogs to benefit and learn from the experience of getting out there in the woods alone and having the chance to make all the decisions wrong or right without the aid of an experienced dog who might rob them of the opportunity to learn by their own choices. I believe this method shortens a dogs learning curve....kind of a baptism by fire or a sink or swim situation. Sometimes I will turn a young do out in front and sometimes I will turn him out behind and sometimes at the same time. There is benefit in all three so why handicap your dog by not allowing him to get alone sometimes and reap the benefits that come from that experience. Despite what Andy has said, I don't believe that anyone has said that a "lead dog " CANNOT be made by just throwing in behind old reliable. It can be done that way ! I have done it, but I have made more "helper" dogs that way also and I believe that doing it this way exclusively ups the percentage of "me too" dogs that you will create. I don't like just throwing young dogs into the mix and then wait, hoping that they will be my next lead dog and not a helper. I would rather use a method that assists, trains and expedites that young dog in becoming that capable,dependable lead dog. By your own admission Robbie, "you have never hunted a young dog solo in your life". How would you know if there are other more effective methods of making lead dogs if you have never tried them ? You also admitted that this method of yours makes some lead dogs and some just helpers. I'm not saying that the way You or Andy or anyone else chooses to do it is wrong. The great thing is that we are all entitled to do it in any manner we choose but there may be others out there who have suggestions that may reduce the number of "helper" dogs you create. Never know unless you try. If your happy with your method and it's results, that's great...no problem. I bet you have achieved a high level of success with your chosen way and are a good houndsmen...wouldn't question that for a second. All I am doing is relating what I have found to be true in my own experience and I have trained a lot of dogs.

Now I want to reiterate what I already said. To me a lead dog is one who is reliable and capable of getting the job done well, by himself. It is my goal in training to make ALL my dogs THAT dog. I don't want a dog to go down and then be in a bind because I don't have a dependable dog to fill his shoes. Like I said before, I am a bear hunter and frequently dogs are out of commission. If you don't want your success to come to a screeching halt you better have a box full of dogs that are dependable and capable of being lead dogs. The dogs that have always impressed me most over the years were the ones that could put a bear in a tree consistently with or WITHOUT company. When you have a dog that is capable of catching many bears solo then you got something special. Doesn't mean he is the fastest dog in your pack or even the grittiest, it just means that.... damn ,that's a nice dog...a lead dog...and why is he a lead dog ? Because he doesn't need a leader.

X2 the last thing Mark said

Trueblue, I made a mistake in my upper post by not explaining that I was referring to my area alone. An area where most times is bare ground & can reach 110 degrees in mid summer. To say the least most times is tuff scenting conditions. I've seen times when "lead" dogs might be 10 to 15 minutes behind a cat and never acknowledge cat had been there. Now...you take a pup solo under these conditions & try to show him a cat!
As I'm training pups & breaking them off trash, I also want to be showing them what they can run & catch "with the older dogs" "CATS".
They have to learn what they can & cannot run. Solo "HERE" you would
never get to show them positive game.

I have trained hog dogs solo here. But hogs give off a lot more scent than a cat. I would assume bears give off more scent than cat too. Making task at hand lot easier.

Might have missed a step here by not trying pup solo because your correct I have never tried it. Reason being all the old veteran cat hunters from south Texas (and there were some good ones) trained their pups with "lead dogs".
I just figured they knew more than me, so I just decided to skip that "solo" step.

Hope this explains my situation a little better.
Robbie

South Texan wrote: Hope this explains my situation a little better.
Robbie

Yes Sir, it does and I understand better now why you do it the way you do in your particular set of circumstances.

Lots of experience & thoughts in this subject. All, when I answered never gave enough thought, there could be a difference between best & easiest.
Robbie I sure would hate to try training a bobcat hound here without an old reliable hound. I have did that, but had to start on coon & graduate to bobcat. Robbie have never hunted here when it was 110, but I have come to believe lots of times a bobcat track does not have to be more that 10 minutes old to be difficult to work. I believe most of the tracks that get jumped are not as old as some think. But that is just my opinion. Al