BigGameHoundsmen.com

Help me understand.
How would someone go about selection?
How would you make an out -cross to make a line complete? For example, if you had a pack of hounds that booger barked at bayed bobcats, lions or bears, how would you add grit, where they went in for the kill, without hesitation, even if they got hurt bad before in the past?
Or how could you add tree power where they stayed right there, no matter how long it takes to get to the tree.
JTG

Varminator wrote:"Selection" is the answer to Breeding (IMO) and of course luck!
Many breeders will make an out cross, in-which has missing traits needed to make their line complete. You may try many times to find the one that fits you, but you will know it when you do.

River bottom think about what you said. We don't want our hounds to all be alike. Even if someone breeds a line that is perfect on bobcats, someone is always going to try and change that because what may make one happy another can't stand and will cull for.
I hate it when people say why reinvent the wheel. When in fact all we are trying to do is create a line that suits us. For example my dad and I have the same line of dogs but are breeding two different directions for what suits us as individuals.
As for selection search far and wide for dogs in the same family that has the traits you are lacking.

If the ancients culled 200 dogs a year I think it would be safe to say their wheel must have been flat and needed reinvented.

Thanks Catdog360, For putting it in way, that may be understood better.
JTG, In my lifetime, mostly hunting heavy brush. A dog that grabs a Bear, the word "WAS" a good Bear Dog comes to mind!
I've also noticed that most bear packs are built around "1" Dog. Which is a die-hard "Bay Dog".

If you want "Bite" in your dogs selection again is the Key!! Some have searched the hound world over and found it and others have reached out to Terriers and Curs.

I have had good luck with Pit-Bull added, which was 1/4, and 3/4 Hound. There is a friend that lives close by that has some bred that way now. Fast,Smart, windy type dogs with med. nose and will stay treed. They will mount a Bear and he has a hard time breaking them off them!! Don't seem to be mean with dogs at 1/4 or less. (from what I've seen of this cross). It's a fairly easy cross, just keep the puppy's that "LOOK" like a hound and has longer legs. That is the "beginning of the selection".

This topic got my attention right away as dad and were just talking about losing some traits and he started telling me about a gut with game cocks that for generations never ran and then they started running so he made an out cross but from the same family and they quit running.
Dad says game bird people pay special attention to genetics and we can learn from them. He said if you really want to look into genetics look at pigeons??

I'm always listening to people who believe in genetics and traits.

I'm also curious about what is a genetic trait and what is instinct.

Mic O'Brien

Strengthening some traits without weakening other good and necessary traits can be tricky business.JTG knows more about this than anyone i know so i always listen carefully to what he has to say.Sometimes even when you get what you want you'll find the dogs can't reproduce those traits.

So is that not a gene then?
Did that cross lose the gene or is the gene hidden and can you then breed that dog that seemed to not have that genetic gene and bring that trait back??
These are the questions I have. Dad says even if the dog doesn't possess the trait it should carry that trait. There for if you had it but lost it with the right cross you can unbury it¿

Mic O'Brien

Mic,I will readily defer to those more knowledgeable than i am but it would seem to me that both cases are possible .It all depends on what traits (genes) each parent contributes to their offspring .If one parent doesn't possess the genes for a certain trait(treeing?) then it would be possible to lose it or breed it out .Some traits do seem to get buried only to come out later with the right cross but it always seems to be only one pup in the litter that gets it.

I'll blame you Robin if we are straying off subject here. Let talk treeing is it possible to lose the gene even if that line has produced tree dogs for 15 generations or is the instinct just not brought out by the trainer??
My old female is out of generations of tree dogs and for the first two years of her life she would build a bed at the tree and go to sleep. Then on her second year a light bulb, we all have heard this saying, came on and she has turned into one of my alltime best locate tree dogs.
The genetic was there but it took two years to bring out. What if the bulb never turned on????

Mic O'Brien

Your dad is sure right you can learn about breeding from many other things. You mention your dad bred the family of gamefowl for many generations, in doing so the breeding became tighter, brining out a weakness in the line. When he made the outcross, the runners stopped, but they will show up again, if bred tightly for several generations.

Since this cock ran, if you kept his brothers, and one of those brothers did not run, you would bred him to all his sisters and test them to remove runners from the family.
JTG

catdog360 wrote:This topic got my attention right away as dad and were just talking about losing some traits and he started telling me about a gut with game cocks that for generations never ran and then they started running so he made an out cross but from the same family and they quit running.
Dad says game bird people pay special attention to genetics and we can learn from them. He said if you really want to look into genetics look at pigeons??

I'm always listening to people who believe in genetics and traits.

I'm also curious about what is a genetic trait and what is instinct.

Mic O'Brien

We're still talking breeding so hopefully no one minds .I can make out a long list of dogs that never started treeing until they were 2+ years old.Several were purebred tree dogs .That's not uncommon here on the west coast.They seem to be real track dogs. Even as well tree bred as your gyp is,i do believe you can lose that treeing with a couple bad crosses.God only knows why but the good traits always seem easier to lose than the bad ones.I would breed her to the best BALANCED hound i could find,preferably one related to her .If JTG checks in he could tell you just how to do it.

As I stated earlier that "Selection" is the Key. If the breeder knows what he's looking for in his line, that's the one to Breed!!

I've bred Gamefowl and Dogs for many years and have followed what I have written. My farm in the P.I. had 8 Big Brood pens to produce Battle Crosses. And 24 single mating Brood Pens for my line breeding. Records are kept on all. With all being marked and banded so the parents are known. Some buyers liked my reds and some the greys
With proper selection ( Complete Brood cocks and pullets out of Complete Brood cocks ) I have Maintained fowl that is needed to compete in that weapon.
I feel the same about dogs. Do you think that there is any pure anything? Unless you have had the same line and have never added anything, I don't think so!!!

By the way, I did Win the Luzon Breeders Cup along with Runner up at Araneta and San Juan World Cup International Derby's, along with others.

I didn't know that Brad.That would give you a leg up on most of us.As for using the word"Purebred " I should have just said registered tree stock.

I add my voice to those who appreciate the bird breeders. Every houndman I have known that was also a chicken man or a pigeon man just had an innate understanding of breeding that is rare among dog folks. They get to witness so quickly the results of their work.

congratulations on your accomplishments in that arena Brad. I sure wish I had a fraction of the genetic understanding you gained by it. Thanks to you and all who are so willing to explain it.

I would go so far as to suggest that any parent that wants to school a child toward becoming a master breeder, birds would sure be a great way to get them going on those concepts.

They might even have a chance of understanding what in the world a "mother line" is before they die.

Some pictures of the Fell Hounds in Australia. Take a look at the Bluetick colored ones, in the Bottom Picture.

Wow they got some pretty nice chicken wire for Their kennels. I guess they can use their kennels for jails if the prison gets too crowded.