What's the deal guys?

[Arkansas Frog]

Earl Hickey that was very good sad but true.

[david]

I'm just a dumb 23 year old kid who likes to go chase my dogs and is pretty fed up with peoples EGOS

well thats the only part you got wrong - your not so dumb at 23 ---

takes most a lot longer to learn what youve written

great post --

Amen, not so dumb, and not a kid. AZ, There have been a lot of folks 23 or younger that have done a lot to make this world a better place, includeing the brave men who have fought and died for my freedom. You are doing your part, and by the way, you are an excellent writer. Keep writing, keep hunting, and dont give up on all people just because most of us are jerks. There is someone out there that could use your influence in their life, and that influence will be passed on to their children and grandchildren, their community, and our nation.

Im glad we are on the same side.

[Shorty]

AZ, Earl,

Very good and sad but true. I also agree that at 23 your not dumb. I also find it sad that we can't get along. I know people have their clicks and always will. I personally prefer to hunt by myself. There are a select few that I enjoy hunting with. None of whom need to brag on their dogs, they let their actions speek for them.

I do however think it's important to give everyone a chance. We should all try helping someone out when they need it. I also think when hunting with someone new it's a good oppertunity to let them know how important game management is. How letting females and young males go will only make the hunting more productive in the coming years. My son is a perfect example of this. We have had a terrible problem with coons in the past. We have eliminated every one we've treed in the last couple years. Now that we have the population in check we can be more selective. It's taken me awhile to get him to understand the process but he's coming around.

Everyone is entitled to take game on public land and thats just a fact. If we'd all take the time to explain to the younger hunters this process it would greatly help out our game populations and hunting productivity. I know that ya'll are thinking, ya right only in a perfect world. Well if we don't start now this world will grow more and more distant from perfect. Besides how long does it really take to stop and visit with a fellow hunter. Maybe five minutes? Thats ample time to let them know that you have been practicing good game management in the are and would appreciate if they did too. We've all made mistakes in taking the wrong game, maybe a female or something a little too young. Mistakes are only bad when you don't learn from them. Good luck and happy hunting.

[david]

Why does everyone have to be the top shit in this sport?
I can't imagine guys like the Lee brothers sitting around talking shit about other hunters.

This is such a great post it gets at some pretty important issues about life.
I rarely have time with a computer any more, but got a few minutes here so just entertaining myself:

First off, I think competition itself can be an excellent thing. If it had not been for competitive sports in high school, for example, I would never have found out the outer limits of my physical capabilities, and I would never have known when I was getting dangerously close to those limits when following dogs deep into the wilderness.

My interest in bobcats is no secret. But what might not be understood is that bobcats provided the most competition for me and my dogs. It is kind of an interesting phenomenon that I have noticed in my life. When I am struggling with trying to put together and train up a good pack of bobcat dogs, I am not really happy unless I am out there every single day, beating my head against the rocks.

Then when I get things clicking so good that I have, for example, caught the last 9 bobcats I have put my dogs on, I start to get this sick feeling and pretty soon, I have got rid of all my dogs. On the third cat in a row I am thinking "wow this is unbeleivable and awsome" but by the sixth one I am feeling uncomfortable. On number nine it is just like "this is not right". Maybe then it is time for me to try catching gray fox or something.

But the two times in my life when I had dogs performing near perfection, it was only a short time befor they were gone. I hate it when the cat does not have at least a 50% chance of beating me. And I love it when my chances of beating him are only about 10%. Cause then I know if I work hard enough at it, eventually I am going to beat him, and when I do, there is absolutely no feeling like it. I can look that sucker in the eyes and say "got you!!", and he can blink and start to take a nap, and I can kneel down and give my dogs all the petting a praise I can, and be truely elated with them. I feel it! Competition for me is a wonderful thing. If I dont have it, I find ways to create it. If not outside myself, then within myself. If I cant create it, pretty soon things feel pointless.

In the case above, I am competing against the bobcat, and against the elements, and it is good. It drives me on toward perfection.

I dont really think competing against people is necesarilly bad either. Even as big game hunters, we have a lot to owe to competion coon hounds and competition fox/coyote hounds. I dont beleive we would have such an excellent starting point for our dogs if not for competition and the desire to dominate a wild animal or another hound man.

I think the problem we are feeling in this discussion has roots that are much deeper than the innate desire to compete. I think it goes to some other areas which get at the core of who we are. One of them is the need of all humans for recognition.

When I encounter a hunter who just cant get enough of himself, if you look deeper, it is actually a hunter who really cant stand himself and is desperately trying to feel like he is somehow worth more than his parents ever told him he was worth. It's always a little kid who never got the nurture he needed, and he's still a little kid at age 40 trying to give himself that nurture, and trying to get you to give it to him too.

When I take the time to realize this, it just mostly makes me sad and makes me want to load up my dogs; load up my dogs and go find my children. Then I try and do my best to give them what they are supposed to get from their dad, so they are not going around when they are 40 trying to get it from themselves and from you. I try to teach them how God feels about them. I want them to know that God values them so much that He decided He would rather die than to live without them. Because even the recognition I can give them is not enough. They need to know they are entirely recognized and known and appreciated by the creator of the universe.

It really comes down to the need for recognition. We all need it. We are made to need it. It is put in us to drive us to the one who made us in His image, in His likeness. When we realize we are made by him, for him, to be like him, how could we feel so bad about ourselves? The entertainment and enjoyment of good competition can still be there, but there is no more need to prove our value to others: we know our value and it is immeasurable.

When the joy of competing is without the desperate need for recognition, it is an upbuilding, life expanding thing.

You can always tell when you are with someone who understands their value. You feel full after being with them. Even if you are competing with them. They have what they need, and they are giving to you out of their fulness. You also can know what is going on when you feel drained by someone. But sometimes, we need to give to those people, because that is what makes us what we were meant to be. That also is what shows them what they were meant to be.

[sow flat slim]

Thank you David.

[Bticked]

Indeed, that was a great post AZ. Fortunately I have not run into one houndsmen that has not been nice to me or more than helpful as this is my first year running. Also on that note Id like to say thank you to Jeff Shaw, John, Tanner, Tim, Dusty, Stephen, Mike, Mark, Bill, the guy in the gold tacoma (sorry I forgot your name) and any and all that have helped me out here or in the field. Like I told my cousin today after leaving the woods empty handed, its not for us, its for the dogs and we had a blast even if all they did was run a damn deer. So, if you see a guy in a busted to hell toyota tundra in the woods, be sure to stop by and have a beer.

SSGT Ryan Wood

[2black/tan]

thats why i chose to take a brake for a while, to many of these so called outlaws treen,and shootn everything.gettn caught on private land.causing the loss of what little rights and access to land we have.then to brag it up on the site, how many bears and lions they have treed in states that dont even have hound hunts for them.the timber companys dont just give those permits to anyone,somebody basicaly has to die.or you have to perform other favors to get. remember george thourough good said .i prefer to be by my self.like spanky said we are our own worst enemy

[brew]

i have to agree that we are our own worst enemy...
THE BAD: I was (still am) fairly green to all this hound hunting and was looking for a couple of dogs to fill my pack. I heard of someone locally who had a black & tan female that they were selling on trial. I picked her up and took her out. She was a beautiful dog but couldn't get her off the box after the strike. My wife happened to be up at the local hair salon a couple days later and was talkin to one of the stylists about her (we live in a pretty small town). The gal she was talkin to knew the dog and told her that the dog had previously been turned loose on a bear and saw her brother killed by the bear so she wouldn't hunt any more. The guy who had her tried to GIVE the dog away but no takers but he was more than willing to try to sell her to me for $500. I promptly took her back.
On another occaision we had a coon derby and one of the participants was caught at a local dairy stealing a syringe to pump his dead coon full of water to make it weigh more. I told the guy running the derby what happened and I was labeled a cull because I didn't catch a coon that night and was just trying to cause trouble.
This is why I find it difficult to find people to hunt with
THE GOOD:
I bought a pup off the site from Ladycathunter in Southern Oregon. My wife and I drove the 400 miles to spend a couple days with her hunting so she could show us her dogs. We had a great time and ended up buying some dogs from her. She spent two days driving us around the woods, seeing a lot of elk and running some game. That was a great experience.
It sux when people try to take advantage of you but I have no reservations about buying another dog from her or recommending her for other houndsmen as she "gets it".
They have taken away most hound hunting here in Washington and the implorable behavior of some people is doing nothing to reverse that.

[az_gogetem]

I'm back from running elk for 4 days. Made me realize how important my check dog was to my pack (she's sick) After they caught (at least they catch em when they run em hahahha) a big ol 350 bull in about 10 min I started wondering if I could say I had the best elk dogs in the state... haha. Just kidding.

I agree there are good people out there in the sport, it just seems like that number is decreasing. While the number of hound hunters (in Arizona anyway, because thats all I know) is absolutely on the rise. The best houndsman I believe I have ever met told me "his dogs do ok," then I watched them hunt and I was blown away even though I had high expectations going in because I've seen dogs he sold before. Probably the most modest man I've ever met. Yet, there are people not to far away that bash him. I learned SO MUCH in the handful of times I have had the pleasure of hunting with him. Things I've been able to apply. I think this touches on the problem I was ranting about. I've been around hounds my whole life which ain't long compared to some people and I know that I DON'T know EVEN CLOSE to everything. I've had some ok dogs. Some that exceled on bear, a few that exceled on lion, some outstanding coon dogs, but never one that did everything perfectly. They got the job done for me though and made me happy.



I try to learn something from everyone I hunt with good or bad. If i see something they do that I like I store it away and make sure I try to make it my own. If i see something they do that doesn't work, I might still try it, or I might not, but I store it away. You take all those styles all the things you've learned you put em together and you do the best you can. Thats what matters. If at the end of the day you are happy, you have succeeded. I ran elk all weekend, and while I was frustrated and angry at times it's still better than sittin in front of the tube or wasting away on the city pavement.

I talked, check that, I listened, he did all the talking and i was happy to let him, to an old hounder(almost 90) last week and he was going on about the economy and the problems with the world and how he'd grown up during the great depression and the problem with the world and he can't believe how terrible people think the times are now when the standard of living is probably higher than it's ever been. Anyway, we were the last two in bear camp as everyone else had gone home when the weekend ended, and he started talking about how he knew he was running out of days yet he was still there in the middle of nowhere with dogs tied up LIVING LIFE. I believe his comment was most people today never make their way off the pavement. He kept going and reminisced about dogs and hunts along the way. Listening to him, was enough to make my time up there worthwhile. I hope at the end of my road, I'll be able to look back and be satisfied with the life I've LIVED. Thats all I think is going to matter. It's not gonna matter one bit if I had the best dogs in the world, thats not gonna go on my tombstone, what will go on their is a name and I want that name to be worth something when it does.

Mike Harris
elk dogs r-us

I had no idea my little rant would produce this much of a reaction.

[R Severe]

Mike, anytime you want to start a little rant that brings the cream to the top like this one, please have at it sir.

[brew]

I'd hate to pollute this subject any more after it was so elloquantly put by Mike what this thing is all about so all I'm gonna say is "Amen brother"

[Yelloyote]

There is a big difference between so called hunters and houndsmen,great post.

[little bit]

hey dont worry about it just go out do what you set out to do . dont get butt hurt about someone that won't stop and talk to you, or talk like ther all that and your not. go out have fun i can't sand 99.9 of houndsmen but my dogs and me have a good time. so all these houndsmen that know it all, and own the moutian are stuck with me in my parts for a long time. i have hunted hounds for sometime, if you think you have the best dog or the best place, ther is always someone with something better. so i would say be a good guy! help people, talk to them all and hunt them damn dogs so hard they never want to bark in the back yard.

[onalimb]

I have found the doggers that won't stop and talk, are guys I don't really want to talk to anyway. So they just saved themselves and me some time.
The guy who got me started in this game, has always told me, "YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR COMPITITION" Take it how you want to, but that one statement has gotten me farther along than anything. You're still young enough to set some goals and obtain them, catch what others have a hard time starting, and draw a line for the dogs you keep and make them tow the mark. Eventually you'll be the compitition, and people will stop by and want to talk, because of your seriousness, or drive by because they have an overinflated ego, or are jeoulous.
Friendly, or unfriendly compitition is a good thing, no different than making lemonade from lemons. JMO

[az_gogetem]

Another example, I was lion hunting recently by myself and found a kill. another hounder I had briefly met pulled into camp to say hi, he's just getting into the sport so I asked if he wanted to tag along the next day and we trailed a lion and had a good time. I ran into him last week looking for his dogs and he said none of these bear hunters would even stop to talk to him. Why not? Afraid he's gonna follow them around and learn all their secrets? Here's the thing..... THEY AREN'T SECRETS. PEOPLE have been running hounds and catching game for over a hundred years. If you think you're doing anything that is truly unique and never been done before you are probably wrong.

I really could care less if somebody stops to talk to me. I was referring to the other guy starting out having problems with people.

My issue was with the ultra competitiveness of some people around hounds. But I'm over it, 10 days on the kaibab hunting, another day out there today close to home looking for lions and I could care less. Like mr.david said, those people NEED to pump themselves up, stroke their ego a little bit let em. Like little bit said just go out and do your thing thats what I've decided. In fact the dogs didn't get much excercise dinking around today so I think I'll go catch some coons. Have a good one everybody.