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From my perspective, I believe the 20's was before the Sugar Creek was started.
The French blood was there alright, you can see it in the earliest pics of the Sugar Creeks. But in Harry O. Smiths' own words, the dogs that really made the most impact and quality on his hounds were the ones he got from Bill Green. That was after his kennel burnt down. I have spent considerable time studing the old pedigrees. I cannot tell, just by the names alone, what dogs were french, if any. I believe that early on there was some good french blood in the Sugar Creeks and when Harry got stock from Bill, Bills' had french blood up close. The resultant crosses, doubled up on the french side and produced the outstanding Sugar Creek type that was so admired by many.
Now remember that Harry got some stock from the Ozarks, which was known to be heavy in french blood. So the mix at that time was Bluetick, Redtick,Bloodhound,French and maybe some Black and Tan. The original crosses you are talking about are now 12-16 generations ago. Today that blood would be too dilute for anything other than conversation. As for the French blood, everyone seems to only think about the Grand Bleu. However there is another French hound that was on the scene at the time. Today they are very rare, only 2000 in the whole world, they are called Gascon Saintongeous. These white french dogs could be found in Louisianna and Texas. I have pics of Bill with a male and two females of this breed. I believe that the GS breed is what made the difference in these historically great hounds. The first and second generation crosses of these GS hounds bear the typical resemblance to the GS. The crosses produced hounds that were very distinctive in appearance and conformation. In the 70's someone imported a pair of Grand Bleu males and alot of people got on the bandwagon in hopes of recreating what once was. It did not turn out as well as expected. I fully believe that it was because of a missing link - the GS. The more I researched and bought up some of the last remnant Sugar Creeks, the more I realized how dilute that strains' blood had become. People had used them to breed up their strain, but no one was trying to perpetuate the old Sugar Creek. This is where I step in. I have imported 2 pair of GS from europe. They have what I believe, are the qualities needed, to add to what I now have in the Sugar Creek survivors, to reproduce what was once thought of as a true Sugar Creek. Only time and hunting will tell, but all evidence points to success.

BT 78, check out this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3143

You have a lot of good points and you are probally on the right track. I've thought and looked at some gs pictures since I read this and you can see the characteristics in some of our blue dogs even now the tail for example the way it flags and tapers.the stucture of the head resembles the gs in some blue dogs but not so much with a pure grand blue. I can also see where breeding back to the grand blue would not be so successful in the first few crosses compared to the gs is already a well balanced cross of two great types of hounds more suited to the way we hunt and what we expect our hounds to perform.I read the thread you give me and a lot of people had great points about different types of dogs, I am a believer in what cameron did with his strain of hounds I think that they have been the best balanced strain over the years, I think some of the cameron blood out there today has been watered down in the wrong direction some and there is some cameron blood out there now that maybe a little too tight but over all I think they can atleast compete all around they are typically medium built for a blue dog they look like hounds they are cold nosed with a lot of grit and gameness they have the endurance for cat and many times I've seen them stay with some fast walkers on a jumped bear race and they have brains all in one package,I've seen honds from every breed and cross just as good but not as often or as consitant. The sugar creek type of hound has always been my favorite and I do think that these old type hounds can keep up with the racey hounds of today and lead a pack of these hounds if they were hunted where the dogs do most of the work there is no grey hound out there that will ever start and finish there own cold lion or bobcat track with out help its not going to happen a dog has got to have a good balance of traits to get the job done when he or she is expected to do it by there self let's think about some of the men that hunted the old fashioned big game blues they typically only need two maybe three hounds this was because every hound had all the ability to get the job done from the start to finish yes they were big dogs and probally would not out sprint a good walker in a jump race but they were cold nosed enough to work a old track and they had the endurance and grit to put the game in a tree or catch in on the ground.

As time goes by, I find myself most of the time, looking for seclusion and privacy when I hunt. I could care a less how many hot tracks I can cut in a day. I will either walk or ride a horse into very remote areas in order to be alone with my dogs. We take the tracks as they come, good or bad. A surprising amount of the bad ones are ending at the tree. That excellent cold trail work leading to a jump is awesome to be a part of. The Sugar Creek nose is the finest I have seen. The cross to the right Cameron has added extreme intelligence and drive. Your right about hunting two or three dogs that can do it all individually. It is a sight to behold. A couple of dogs like that can do things most people wouldn't believe.

As for some of the Camerons being bred too tight, I feel it is time for some honest culling. Then future litters will be even better and even more uniform.

I hear you about the solitude nothing like it. Good points once again I like your views and taste in hounds. Up here in ny it isn't really pratical for me to hunt from horse back I have to drive an hour to get into bob cat country but when I get there I most often follow the dogs entirley on foot we may strike from the truck sometimes but usually I take the dogs into the timber and free cast them and they cut there own tracks, about the only time I take the truck to get closer to the tree or race is if my daughter is out with me she is young so she don't have the endurance yet but that's how I usually do it

Forgive me for sticking my nose in here because I hate to interfere with this great thread but I have a question. Liontracker stated that in the mid 70's Del Cameron had problems with his dogs and got rid of what he had. What did he use to build back up to where he is now? Again, sorry for hijacking.

I will let lion tracker answer your qs if he likes he is a lot more knowledgeable on this subject then my self I know the basics behind dels breeding but lion tracker could probally give you better specifics.

Coyote wrote:Forgive me for sticking my nose in here because I hate to interfere with this great thread but I have a question. Liontracker stated that in the mid 70's Del Cameron had problems with his dogs and got rid of what he had. What did he use to build back up to where he is now? Again, sorry for hijacking.

If you go on the Bluetick board and check the thread "cameron hounds" it details pretty well about Del's stock.

Liontracker,Does Ed Hawley still have that blood going?I seem to remember an ad he had in the abgha year book a few years back.

Bearhntwi,
I went back and sifted through all three pages on the Bluetick board but I didn't really find much on the history of Camerons. Most of the posts seemed to be geared towards advertisements. Thanks for the input.

Coyote wrote:Bearhntwi,
I went back and sifted through all three pages on the Bluetick board but I didn't really find much on the history of Camerons. Most of the posts seemed to be geared towards advertisements. Thanks for the input.

Sorry,I coulda swore it was on there,must've been on another thread if I come across it i'll let ya know.

Cheers,Carl

Ed Hawley is dead now. The last full Sugar Creek Male I could find was his old PA Smoke dog. His last breeding daughter was my old Filly bitch, who was 3/4 SC. His last breeding son was John Roberts' FCV Smoke, who was 1/2 SC. Almost all the living Sugar Creek blood today is out of Eds' Smoke dog. The three males I own have the most Sugar Creek blood out there at this time.

Cameron restarted with some heavy Vaughn bred dogs out of the Clearwater kennels. He then got a dog from J.J. Henneman, now minisink valley, named little blue. The present Camerons all go back to about 6 original dogs.

Thanks lion tracker, I think sometimes we forget about some of the great vaughn dogs they have contributed a lot to the blue tick breed over the years on both the big game and competition side of the house,but I still love the old sugar creek dogs, if you need any help resurrecting these great hounds just let me know I would do anything in my power to see these great hounds live on.

BT78, what were a few of the Sugar Creek dogs you had and who did they come from?
You are right that there is an awfull lot of Vaughn blood behind most of the great blues.

here is a couple pics of the dogs working this morning they have been locked up for a couple weeks i have been busy so i layed a short cat track this morning and used a training coon to fire them up a little thunder is between 6 and 7 months now he is between 26 and 27 inches tall and weighs just over 80lbs. hope you enjoy pics there a little blurry from the son but here they are. I didnt get any footage of them trailing it was only about a three hunded meter drag out back and they were treed about the time i cut them loose.