BigGameHoundsmen.com

Its an extremely big project but a guy can make himself happy if he just hunts his dogs and breeds the best he can find to the best he can find and try real hard not to listen to anybody, including me actually especially me if I am

Dan, I actually listen better after I have a few! It would be nice to have a few with you and swap ideas. My bitch was intensely line bred for 6 generations, so 1/2 of the work is done. Her next breeding will probably be to her grandson. I bred one of her daughters to an uncle last year and got an outstanding young male out of it. So I am getting set for the next few generations. Like Pete said, it is a big project and will take alot of time.
Just wondering how close and for how long, anyone has bred a line?

You will get er done if you keep at it. Go as tight as you can and dont lie to yourself and see what you get. If you get too tight, make sure you back up a step and continue on. I would not ever though breed one of the offspring after you got too tight. I think you will be living with that "shit" forever if you do that. I think this is where alot of the "Kemmer" boys went wrong. They bred after they should have seen it was too tight. Now, they got dew claws all the time, cow hocked pups, and so on and so forth. Patterdale fellas in my opinion have done the same shit. I seen all kinds of faults in them including inverted eyelids and a jacked up grill. How the hell can you breed bad teeth into dogs that depend on their bite to live. Dont make sense to me. I aint been around alot of Kemmers nor Patterdales but I damn sure see that.

One more thing, I really think the comp coondogs boys have done the same thing with the Walker dogs which I do know quite a bit about. They have bred the tree so long that they just cant get away from it now.

Liontracker, just so you know Dan V is the guy that owns Big Shirely.





Dan, I couldn't agree with you more about the walker dogs.



I had a walker bitch that is just started out a while back and she is a trail minded little hussy. She was smoking on a night old track and she made a little loss and her half sister who is a bit older slipped ahead with another long legged male dog and they treed it. Well she didn't just pull off and come to the tree she trailed it to the tree and then circled out and really hunted hard for the track she wasn't taking anybody's word for it. some would say shoot that little bitch she has no tree in her. ha! I smiled like the Cheshire cat because when she treed she knew it had not gone on and she was sure.that is fairly normal in this strain and that is one of the reasons I like them. But it wouldn't be any problem to make them tree crazy or even cross breed several that were more tree minded if you will or tree goofy and end up in the same pot of soup.

Mike, I do not want to get into all the stuff on the Walker dogs and hijack this thread but of course we both know what each other is talkin about. I could go on and on and on but I dont feel the need to anymore.

Dan V, hang on tight to that Big Shirley, if you know what I mean.

Dan E, time and distance...

mike l, i won't even try to keep up.you are on the money. look at my line of dogs,probably close to the oldest example of walker blood the white cloud strain. line bred since time. i have records dating back to 1927. how is it over the evolution of many generations of offspring i hit the wall on what i precieve as basic performance expectations. chaching! along the line there was someone who never lived by the words of lou holtz. did we know if those who lead this march ahead of me had ability? i'm sure many did, but how about all? motivation for what? profit first?or loyalty to the brand? attitude? do i actually have to continue to prove this stuff or just ride the wake? once humans become involved you are heading for a train wreck.i have been derailed but keep striving for excellence. i will prevail. looking back on this it is way too much work. worth it? i can answer this in about ten more years. if i didn't have other brands of hounds sitting along side of these old linebred dogs i would flush the works.

patients will allow me to prevail. at some point i will line up those select few dogs worthy of carrying this over the top. waiting on them to be proven takes a lot of time.hunting them and culling them, i wish i could tree game with mice!

what keeps a person moving forward? when you see a mirrored immage in the offspring. you have to wonder about cloning! or how the hell do i get the dam/ sire to reinvent itself? huge mystery, interesting subject, thanks to all for the input. i just added one more drop into my thimble of knowledge.

I strongly believe in linebreeding, and even inbreeding, but you have to know the dogs and the line and what traits your trying to lock up and get rid of. It takes time and committment.

IMO you can have a dog with the strongest natural abilitys in the world but how you raise that dog and how I raise that dog will determine on how the dog turns out. What Im willing to except, verses what your willing to except in a dog when it comes to culling. IMO dogs are as much enviornmentaly created and they are bred right.

Knowing your lines and the dogs in those lines is important when linebreeding. Because the traits of the dogs 2-5 generations back may start poping up, things that the origanal breeder was maybe trying to breed away from, and then you also need to be mindfull of genetic issues. IMO the only dogs that shold be culled early maybe before 2-3 years old would be a genetic fault. Before that your not looking at the whole dog and the developement of that dog. If you cull for personal traites you dont like example barking, or size, or color etc... you may be culling the best dogs in the litter and never find out. Also if you have two sisters and one is far superior to the other in hunting abiltiy and athleticly, until you breed them both you'll never know who is the producer. You'll find that the best of the best isnt alway the better producer, one bitch may have the better natural abilitys, and trainability, but cant pass it on to her offspring, where the inferior bitch of the two is a producer and throws all the good traites to her offspring making her a "Blue Hen"

Linebreeding and inbreeding over all produces a more consistent litters of dogs in the long run, doing one cross or two crosses isnt going to get you to far. Develpoing a line and keeping it consistent and trying to better it, takes a long term commitment.

If your going to try to develope a line you need to create a standard ,and have a goal in mind. IMO to do it right you need to breed for strong natural abilitys, and trainability. And like I said before everyone is different in what they are willing to accept, and how long they are willing to deal with those traits in a dog. if your trying to develope a line it takes time and money and if you do it right your going to hold on to alot of dogs to find the breeders and stronger dogs in that line to breed back to. The best hunting dog may not be the best dog in the kennel or home situation.

And remember environment plays a big roll in how a dog turns out. I've personally heard it a hundred times how people talk about their dogs of old and how they were the best. IMO its becasue they as owners were excited and more willing to make a dog. The older they got and the more number of dogs they have, or had, and that excitement and willingness to make a dog becomes harder. When the first dogs were worked one on one everyday, the dogs of today are grouped into 2-3 from this litter and 2-3 from that litter along with all the other dogs, so the oppertunity to get worked is less. If you breed dogs, and your trying to make a line, you have to hunt them and work them, and it takes time most guys dont have, or it burns them out and kills the desire they once had at trying to make a dog, because its to much work, so then people start culling on personal traits instead or natural abiltiy traits, and trainability.

If you like reading books theres a couple books written by Robert Wehle he was a birddog breeder

1) Snakefoot ,The making of a Champion.
2) Wing $ Shot

Robert Wehle was a breeder of the Elhew Line of English Pointers. He was a Great Breeder and did alot of line and inbreeding, and culling of dogs to make his line.

Larry Lowell

OK Guys,

As some of you know Dad has been line breeding his Hounds since 1968. The 1st cross used two Ch. Mark S. bred Hounds so the line breeding started two generations before him.( His first X was an own son of Mark S., whose mother was a Mark S. granddaughter, breeding him to a Bitch who had Mark S. 5 times in 3 generations from both sides of her pedigree) both Hounds were exceptional in their own rights having the Nose and Brains that Dad was striving to achieve!

Line or In breeding does not cause faults to suddenly appear in the ofspring but will "Expose" undesirable traits as well as concentrating the desireable traits!

There have been some great books presented on Genetics dealing mostly with cattle, sheep, horses and plants. However there are several good books and articles on Hound breeding. www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com has a section on Hound Breeding Articles. If you go there and find the three by "White" most folks can find useful and enlightning information presented in an understandable manner.

Linebreeding has worked for Dad as his "Genetic Predictability Probability" has allowed several generations to pass since we have had not only a Bad Litter but an inferior Individual!(Yes Dan E., I know you don't believe in whole litters making Hounds but we have 7 litters from different matings going back 8 yrs that will prove it, there were many others but Mother Nature and Father Time has taken them.)

Mr. Mike hit on a very good point! Commercialization, the all mighty Dollar, the down fall of lots of people and lots of programs. Dad has never sold a Hound. He has bred for his own pleasure and shared with a select few friends, this maybe what has allowed his continued success.

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

I forgot to add what I think is a memorably quote from one of the Articles to be found at Foxhoundspastandpresent.

A noted Fox Hunter states "He would rather have a good young bitch get snake bit, than breed her to a Male with more than 20 individuals in a 5 generation Pedigree".

A strong opinion and worth considering especially taken in context with the rest of that article and bits of info gleamed here!

CJC

Money is the biggest downfall of most houndmen IMO.Some just lose sight of thier end goal when they start selling hounds for big money,some never even get off the ground because thier only goal was to make money and a big name.The minute it stops being about the hounds and the hunting it's over.