running to catch rahter then to chase

[cab]

IMO speed has little to do with the "heart" of the dog. A beagle can run to catch with desire as great as that of a grayhound. A grayhound may be the fastest dog alive, and have little desire to "catch". I think the topic was "running to catch", not how much speed was required to "catch", the quarry. Fox and coyote are not the only game being ran with dogs. Running to catch, and being able to actually catch the game being ran, are not exactly the same feat.

[perk]

I think the way a dog operates in a field tells you if they are running to catch or not. To catch game consitently you will need a pack with a little of everything. Cutters and swingers, pack dogs and track dogs. You need those track type dogs alot on misses, I do like a dog to handle a track, but I have to say nothing makes me more mad than a dog that doesnt run to catch. When another dog grabs the track out front a track dog that is running to catch pcks his head up, shuts his mouth, and doesnt bark agian until he is back with the front dogs/pack. If he doesnt pull up there could be 2 problems, one he hasnt heard the pack yet, two he wont give up his track to get there. I run a shock collar on some of my oldest dogs who could get hung up behind, I use it when they get behind to make them pick up there head and hear the chase, they get back to the buisness quick, rarely have to use it but hate a dog barking behind. Now I have briefly owned dogs who would go right back to the track, they didnt pull up and they didnt eat here much longer.

One of my better jump dogs is starting to age, he has never barked anywhere but on the front end, more of a redfox dog than a grey fox dog, but runs a grey fine, now when the fox starts to get broke down and doubleing, if we are at a road you can bet he is in it looking for the fox to cross, he just flanks the chase back and forth, he will go back in if the fox is close enough to wind from the road pisses me off he isnt in there helping but no doubt he is looking to catch, and mr fox doesnt want to come in the road he is as good as gone, and once he sees a fox he is running he is hard to front the rest of the chase, he alwasy runs to catch but he goes wild after seeing the fox once.

Whenever I see the fox I will holler to pull the dogs up and get them more excited. My hounds better know when IM hollering they need to stop where they are and pull to me because I have the better track, dogs that consitently dont pull to me tell me they are more interested in the fox track than the fox meat.

I think that the best way to know if dogs are running to catch or not is to be around a pack that is a few times, then compare those chases to the other chases. I been arround some/alot packs I i didnt feel where running to catch

Just My opnion,
Perk

[perk]

Rabbit beagles we hunt better follow the same rules of running, if you aint at the buisness end shut up and get there, and If I holler you better quit the track and pull to me immediately, because I got the buisness end. Used to have some rabbit beagles that would pull to a gun shot because they knew it was the front of the chase, see some deer dogs do the same with gunshots.

Perk

[Dan Edwards]

IMO speed has little to do with the "heart" of the dog. A beagle can run to catch with desire as great as that of a grayhound. A grayhound may be the fastest dog alive, and have little desire to "catch". I think the topic was "running to catch", not how much speed was required to "catch", the quarry. Fox and coyote are not the only game being ran with dogs. Running to catch, and being able to actually catch the game being ran, are not exactly the same feat.

Speed and heart are not the same thing. I dont see where anybody said that they were. Speed is required to catch any kind of quarry. Differing amounts of course but its still required. The faster and more enduring the quarry is the faster and more enduring the dog must be to catch it. I cant keep hounds that are not physically capable of catching the game I chase. What would be the point in feeding them.

I cannot take one of my dogs out and put them on a dirt lion track that was made at midnight and its 8 am now in the blistering AZ sun. They probably wont even acknowledge that there is a track there. If they do acknowlege it, they aint gonna say nothing and they damn sure aint gonna stick their nose in it. You try to push one of my dogs nose down in a track and they literally cower cause they think you are mad at them. They are not interested in the track. They will lift their heads and take off running in the direction they "think" the critter went to try and jump it and then run it down but that might not be possilbe to find that lion and they would probably trash out on some junk between here and there. At the same time, they are theo only kind of hound that I have seen that can consistently catch the game I chase in any terrain I have hunted. Thats cause they aere truely "running to catch".

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Interesting topic. I find while hunting bear that my 1/2 hound pups are doing almost all the catching as they seem to have their mothers desire and hunt with there brains a little more. What I have noticed is my Bl and Tan is very useful on those very windy days when a ground pounder stays on the track and does not drift as much in windy conditions. I believe speed is the factor separating these dogs not so much desire.

[NorWester]

I think the way a dog operates in a field tells you if they are running to catch or not. To catch game consitently you will need a pack with a little of everything. Cutters and swingers, pack dogs and track dogs. You need those track type dogs alot on misses, I do like a dog to handle a track, but I have to say nothing makes me more mad than a dog that doesnt run to catch. When another dog grabs the track out front a track dog that is running to catch pcks his head up, shuts his mouth, and doesnt bark agian until he is back with the front dogs/pack. If he doesnt pull up there could be 2 problems, one he hasnt heard the pack yet, two he wont give up his track to get there. I run a shock collar on some of my oldest dogs who could get hung up behind, I use it when they get behind to make them pick up there head and hear the chase, they get back to the buisness quick, rarely have to use it but hate a dog barking behind. Now I have briefly owned dogs who would go right back to the track, they didnt pull up and they didnt eat here much longer.

One of my better jump dogs is starting to age, he has never barked anywhere but on the front end, more of a redfox dog than a grey fox dog, but runs a grey fine, now when the fox starts to get broke down and doubleing, if we are at a road you can bet he is in it looking for the fox to cross, he just flanks the chase back and forth, he will go back in if the fox is close enough to wind from the road pisses me off he isnt in there helping but no doubt he is looking to catch, and mr fox doesnt want to come in the road he is as good as gone, and once he sees a fox he is running he is hard to front the rest of the chase, he alwasy runs to catch but he goes wild after seeing the fox once.

Whenever I see the fox I will holler to pull the dogs up and get them more excited. My hounds better know when IM hollering they need to stop where they are and pull to me because I have the better track, dogs that consitently dont pull to me tell me they are more interested in the fox track than the fox meat.

I think that the best way to know if dogs are running to catch or not is to be around a pack that is a few times, then compare those chases to the other chases. I been arround some/alot packs I i didnt feel where running to catch

Just My opnion,
Perk

How often does your pack "catch" a red fox Perk?

You mentioned your rabbit hounds, are you hunting/running some kind of hare or cottontail?

[coastrangecathunting]

i never read every one of these comments so i might say something someone has already said. To me running to catch on a bobcat race is that dog you see when they smell a cat they turn inside out . Usually simi silent on the track untill the jump but once they are jumped gets out ahead of the rest and catches the cat rather on the ground or up a tree . A trail dog cathes just as much game if not more it just seems to take longer . I like to have a couple of each . The treeing walkers or more open on the cold track so i might cold track for an hour before my catch dog even opens whitch i like it kinda lets me know how old the track is. That is why i hunt both it seems to be the best of both worlds.

J.C. Padgett

[perk]

Norwester,
I dont catch an awful lot of red foxes, have caught and seen caught more than a couple though, and run plenty to the ground, i dont go out with the intention of running them, except to run young reds, they give good 15-min races before being caught or holeing up. I try to run greys as the chase tends to stay tight and I can hear it all. have caught lots of greys but ran twice that to the ground, loads of holes here. The red fox is a coward he is heartless, I can see greys and holler for the hounds multiple times and he will not necissarily go in a hole, but if you see a red more than once and holler bet your bottom dollar he is going in. I got buddies who run them hours and hours at night, not my type of hunting, I want the daylight so i can see whats going on. But I have caught reds, normally they go to ground, in my part of Va there are tons of dens and holes, it doesnt matter how hard they pressure him if he beats them to the hole, ya aint catching him. my pack caught the only yote I have ever been after. Have accidently caught coons, possums, house cats and bobcats, had young dogs catch a deer before I could break them off the track, treed a bear with them and caught a chicken or two.......aint really proud of those last few but they are dogs they aint perfect, and when ya keep a pack sometimes they do something ya dont like, all ya can do is correct it and move on. They suit me, and yeah they will lose their game as well. But one things for sure the majority run to catch.

We use beagles on cottontails, thats all thats around, 5-6 years ago we caught right many on top without having to shoot them, dogs arent the same caliber now but do catch the occasional one. but dont get no where near as excited to hunt rabbit as I do a fox. its a sickness

[Dan Edwards]

Great reply perk. Sounds to me like you know your stuff for sure.

[cab]

The faster and more enduring the quarry is the faster and more enduring the dog must be to catch it. I cant keep hounds that are not physically capable of catching the game I chase. What would be the point in feeding them.


Dan, I agree with what you say about needing dogs with the tools to get the job done. If they can't do the job, get better dogs.
BUT on the other side of the coin, there are dogs that have all the tools, but only use part of them. These dogs will catch some game, but never give their best. Keep the hit and miss dog with all the unused talent, and give me a dog with a little less ability, but gives 110% every day, day in, day out, when he feels good and when he don't, doesn't look for help from anyone or anything, and when he does get the chance to catch, he catches to kill. The first type IMO is not a run to catch dog. The latter type is what I call a run to catch dog.
You are also right about the type of dogs that you hunt, (right type for the type and conditions you hunt in) not being able to find many lions out west. These 60# dogs that will trail those lions that your dogs have no desire to look for, will also run to catch, and catch to kill at the end of the track. I am feeding a 2 year old, one eyed, plott cross that is living proof that he thinks he can kill a lion without help. He may not be the best dog in the world, but he certainly isn't the first in line to look for a new home either.

[Dan Edwards]

I hear ya cab. Maybe I need to re-do some of my thinkin actually. I think you just may be right and I may have been wrong on this one in a way. By no means though are these faster dogs not giving it their all, they just have a different style. It sounds crazy to some but the track straddling dogs just cannot "catch" here on what I run.

[perk]

Cab, if he isnt giving it his all, then he dang sure isnt running to catch even if he has the tools. Those are the types of dogs where I hunt that dont hark to me when Im hollering, that dont pull up on the track, that come out and constantly stand in the road. They dont make it here, they lack a big 2 things involved with running to catch.......heart and desire. all running hounds are born with tools to catch the ones that dont use it, who dont give it all, arent running to catch. We used to catch alot of coons on the ground when i coon hunted, those dogs were running to catch not to find a tree, the best/fastest arent always your favorites, its the ones who give it all and bare down when ya need a little extra that seem to be my favorites.

Perk

[cab]

I think we are all saying about the same thing, just wording it a little differently. Talking more about our specific game, location, hunting conditions, ect. that vary from one hunter to another. IMO there are few truly great hounds period. There are lots more that could be great hounds, but they lack that something special in their character that the great ones all have. It's easy to breed speed, nose, grit, tree, mouth, size, color, ect. but that something special, that which brings everything else in that 1 in a 1000 dog together in just the right way very hard to get passed on to the next generation.

[Irish Bryan]

Norwester sent me a link onto this discussion( great site by the way)
I've added 2 pictures of foxhounds from this side of the water, they would be 70-80+ lbs but they are built for speed.
When some packs say they are not out to catch the fox, what their real focus is , is on entertaining the field of horses. The guys on the horses pay for the show, but mostly don't care about the hunt they just want to gallop.
Foxhounds are not expected to dwell on a line too long but to cast forward and run on.It's all about a fast hunt for the horses.
In a straight race no fox will beat a foxhound, it's a race between both with the fox trying to get to the nearest cover where he has the advantage in being able to get through tight briars quicker.
with smaller packs though and packs on foot the focus is more on the hound work, a hound that skirts cover or casts very wide will kill more foxes, but takes from the overall hunt, and is seen as lazy and damaging to the pack.
Bryan

[Dads dogboy]

Glad to have you aboard, Byran!

Great Pics! Where are Pics from. Nice Hounds, are they from a Known Hunt Club, a Foot Pack, or was this a mixed Pack. Did I not see a Hardaway Crossbred Hound in the Pics. The Country looks rather open, was this the end of the Chase? Was the Fox put to ground?

Again nice to have another perspective.

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy