BigGameHoundsmen.com

Bob Baldwin~
I agree with you. TIME invested is where the rubber meets the road....plus, isn't that why we all do what we do?! To spend time with our hounds is to appreciate them and become better houndsmen. You are spot on.

Rockcreek~ I agree that there are culls in every breed, but, to think that all weaned puppies arent worth anything is a falacy I believe many houndsmen buy into. A weaned puppy from a solid line is worth MUCH more than his or her counterpart from a buddys dogs....why?? Because they grow up. I agree you can get a lemon in a good line, but, just speaking for me, I choose to start with the best lines and increase my odds. Lastly, I agree that you can get caught up in the "fancy stories" as you call them...however, despite our tendencies to exagerate, you get a fancy story by doing fancy things. I agree that most houndsmen don't hunt enough to really see what they have...so buy from those who do and pay them whatever they charge for their puppies

I'm not saying everyone should charge 1000 bucks per puppy.....I'll keep buying your underpriced pups I just wonder when houndsmen will catch up to the rest of the dog world....beleive me guys, we are at the back of the pack on this one

Brady- No worries bud. You keep buying whatever you want... I did that for years too and wasted a bunch of money and time.

I'll keep buying pups from my buddies for $50 a pup, from dogs I have seen catch game. In the end, if they turn out to be world beaters it's all the same. If they don't well...

Take care.

I have done it your way; wasted a bunch of money and time.....hmmmmm

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just making a point. We as houndsmen are behind. Rockcreek, you and the world beaters are the exception....most $50 pups arent solid, I'm sure there are a few Seabiscuts out there (cheap underdogs who turn out to be worldclass) but in ANY animal world, if you want good stuff you PAY for good stuff. Racehorses, rope horses, bird dogs, etc.

Brady Davis wrote:I have done it your way; wasted a bunch of money and time.....hmmmmm
I'm not trying to stir the pot, just making a point. We as houndsmen are behind. Rockcreek, you and the world beaters are the exception....most $50 pups arent solid, I'm sure there are a few Seabiscuts out there (cheap underdogs who turn out to be worldclass) but in ANY animal world, if you want good stuff you PAY for good stuff. Racehorses, rope horses, bird dogs, etc.

I'm not trying to stir the pot either bud . I have learned from experience that good dogs are where you find them. I have paid lots of money for pups and have had some work out and some not, I have also got pups from hard hunting friends for little or nothing and have had some of them work out and some not... So that has taught me, just because you spend $$$$$$ on a pup, it doesn't guarantee you a thing.

If all you want to do is have a couple dogs that will catch game, you'd be money, time, frustration, pick up's, boots, relationships and countless other things ahead if you saved and paid the money for well proven dogs.

Fact is if I was getting into the hound game all over again, I would spend the $500 dollars(Or whatever amount) I had saved up for a pup, not on a pup, but on some hunting trips with people that would have me along.

If you love to raise pups and watch them progress into game catching hounds you can be proud of, (Like I do) you'll learn that sometimes when you pay the big money for the HYPE (Current popular, most advertised, talked up dogs) all you end up with is HYPE and a cull.

I agree that most average, run of the mill, $50 dollar pups are usually not the way to go. There are some people that care more about where their pups go to and who gets them, than making a buck. It's certainly not easy to find these kind of people, but sometimes you get lucky and meet them. After paying your dues(Waking up in pre-dawn hours to go freeze your butt off looking for a track to run, logging countless hours in a truck, on a sled, wheeler, or horse and missing some important "Functions", spending untold hours looking for young dogs that are "Still out", and many other things to feed your fire and do this the right way) you may get lucky as I have through the years and find pups worth feeding, for reasonable prices.

That still does not mean they will all work out, you still have to do YOUR part and hunt them and give them every opportunity to be what they were born to be. It's not easy, not by a long shot(That's why you would be all of those things I mentioned before ahead) but it is certainly worth it.

So after all that being considered, and all the "Blood, sweat and tears" that go into making a real game catching hound, I hope you see what I mean when I say that (IN MY OPINION) a weaned pup has very little value to me... after all they are just pups, and there is lot's more to it, than a "Fancy story".

I agree....$$$$ doens't guarantee anybody anything....sure does increase your odds usually though..

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. Though I probably lean in the direction of Brady's postings .I certainly am not going to belittle anyone who can only afford $ 50 hounds .yet myself I may have different requirements when purchasing a $500 pup as opposed to a $3,500.00 rig dog. I suppose we all would like to start out with 6 or 7 good Rig dogs but the reality of life is my name is not Bill Gates .we all have different GOALS for our packs and How we are prepared to ACHIEVE those GOALS . So far I have found that the best way to arrive at that destination is questions , references, questions ,more references ,seeing the hounds under the tree, more questions ,and actually asking the breeder WHAT ,WHY and How the crosses were made .Not trying to be selfish or pompous but from a seller's perspective I would probaly lean towards someone who just does not sell to everybody. hoping that WE would both end up on the same page.

In my experience, the best pups I have owned came from real honest men and they were free.

bob baldwin jr wrote:This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. Though I probably lean in the direction of Brady's postings .I certainly am not going to belittle anyone who can only afford $ 50 hounds .yet myself I may have different requirements when purchasing a $500 pup as opposed to a $3,500.00 rig dog. I suppose we all would like to start out with 6 or 7 good Rig dogs but the reality of life is my name is not Bill Gates .we all have different GOALS for our packs and How we are prepared to ACHIEVE those GOALS . So far I have found that the best way to arrive at that destination is questions , references, questions ,more references ,seeing the hounds under the tree, more questions ,and actually asking the breeder WHAT ,WHY and How the crosses were made .Not trying to be selfish or pompous but from a seller's perspective I would probaly lean towards someone who just does not sell to everybody. hoping that WE would both end up on the same page.

I certainly didn't mean all I could afford was a $50 dollar pup . Simply trying to point out that there are pups out there , that will turn out every bit as good as the high dollar pups, for a LOT less money.

I just got home from training some "Cheap" pups and I was sure impressed. Of course they don't know what we paid for them.

I don't claim my way is the best way or the right way to go about buying pups. It's just my way.

Take care.

It's pretty simply really, Get pups from guys who catch game in your area. If you've got to give up a 30 pack or $300, give it a whirl. If you want to get real crazy, get some from guys who catch game in OTHER areas. Note that I said guys who "catch" game not "say" they catch game.

Comparing hound pups to bird dog pups in any way/shape/ or form is not accurate. For the average hunter bird dog guy, you've got to get the worst pup on the planet for it not to do most of what you want it to do. It's just a lot easier to control the training situations for bird dogs than it is for hounds. I bet 1 out of 10 bird dogs are complete duds. If you can get 5 good serviceable hounds out of 10 you are prettly lucky and maybe 1 will be a real cracker jack. I've seen only a handfull of litters that produced multiple top dogs and you can bet your ass that cross was repeated.

Nolte

You have a misguided perception of bird dogs. Their job isn't always easier, just different. The reason more turn out is because guys focus on a dog and spend time with it! I believe a good handler with good blood can turn out the vast majority of his hounds will be good ones.

If you can get good blood cheap.....BUY IT!

Good luck fellas!

My dogs had a litter by accident. One is a cameron and the other a red pound hound. Sold them on KSL for $250 each until there was only 1 left. Thats when the bidding war began! Last one went for $500. At that time neither parents had ever been under a tree. The trick is to not sell them to houndsmen

The Vise wrote:My dogs had a litter by accident. One is a cameron and the other a red pound hound. Sold them on KSL for $250 each until there was only 1 left. Thats when the bidding war began! Last one went for $500. At that time neither parents had ever been under a tree. The trick is to not sell them to houndsmen

Too funny

roflmao.......

Training a dog to do most any activity is quite possible regardless of breed and the simpler the "thing" is the easier it should be for the average dog and trainer to achieve. Cadaver dogs come to mind here, as I have experience there. There is no breed of "cadaver dog" so they are trained from the ground up to do this job. It would be a lot simpler and quicker if there were inherited traits that could be relied on to provide a base to train up from.(A rather morbid idea of using hyenas to search for corpses crossed my mind as they are driven naturally towards this behavior but their general attitude and the public's reception of the idea put a halt to any further thoughts along those lines.)
When someone buys a money hound they aren't paying for the dog so much as they are paying for those inherited traits that make a hound stick its nose to the ground, trail, run, bay,and tree. In some strains a preference of specific game animal is passed on lessening the training required that much more. A foundation of bred in desire and ability that only needs to be fine tuned and tweaked to get the desired performance. This is why we all start with dogs bred for our type of hunting to bypass all those endless hours of training a dog the basic hound behaviors needed before we can even began to start training the advanced behaviors required of a good hound. I do believe that these genetics can be bought in some instances for $50 but in most cases probably not. It still comes down to this if I liked a pups parents enough I'd pay quite a bundle for a pup but I'd be happier to get it at a discount

Brady Davis wrote:Nolte

You have a misguided perception of bird dogs. Their job isn't always easier, just different.

Brady, I never said their "job" was easier, just that it is much easier to set up training situations to simulate real hunting scenarios. With hounds the "meat" of training all comes OTJ (on the job). There is no way to practice pounding out the right tough old track, or locating a critter way up in a tree, or sticking on a tough bad bear 5 hours into the run on the heat. You can only figure that stuff out by sorting through the ones that can do it. I've seen lots of parents that could do it, but their pups never could.

I will have to admit, I've only trained one bird dog (which I currently have). He's no rock star, but he does what I need him to do. He listens when he gets out too far, works up a bird trail until it flushes, and finds a downed bird that I can't. In the duck blind he sits by me or in the dog hut, marks a downed bird and goes to get it. I only bird hunt maybe 20 days a year, so that is good enough for me. If I had more time, I'd probably do a bit more hand signals and such.

With bird hunting, you can still be successfull and have a decent hunt without a dog. It's not as much fun and probably not as productive. With hound chased game you are really spinning your wheels without a good dog. In fact it's more like just wasiting time, or I sometimes refer to it as "training".