BigGameHoundsmen.com

OK so I contacted my cousin who has a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell and is the herd manager for a 3000 animal dairy farm. He handles all of the breeding, AI and ET work for the operation - he knows a thing or two about a thing or two when it comes to genetics.

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"Sam - I'm reading a board discussion about dog breeding and genetics. There are guys on there saying that if a dog is conditioned and fed well it will pass better genetics? I say bull shit it might be more fertile and have more and healthier pups. But the DNA passed is exactly the same. From the first cum shot to the last."


"Matt- what these guys are talking about is epigenetics. They probably don't know the science behind it but there is some evidence that outside influences on the parents can affect how genes are expressed but not what genes get passed on. They are sort of right, sort of wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

A lot of those old-timer theories have some merit to them even if the science is sparse at best. A lot of pigeon breeders think the 1st 2 eggs a hen pigeon lays will be the best racers. Same thing with racehorses and the 1st foal.

It is an interesting topic. There is a whole other level that is the theory that the environment that the embryo is in during the 1st 7 days after conception plays a major role in how genes are expressed. Figuring out how to positively influence these type of things is what could be interesting."

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Interesting stuff but, I'm not sure I buy it. That's like saying Michael Jordan's kids are more likely to be great ball players because Michael played a bunch of ball. NO - his kids would be more likely to be great ball players because Michael already had the genetic predisposition to be a great ball player and passed that on.

Now if you took two of his kids and had one pay ball from the cradle on and the other play video games then the one playing ball would be much more likely to develop that genetic predisposition, that he already had. Just like pups raised in a stimulating engaging environment are much more likely to turn out that pups left on the chain.

I absolutely believe that we can have a huge effect on how a pup utilizes and expresses it's genetic make up but, I don't think anything we can do will effect what genes get passed on.

Matt

Your cousin should go back to school and take an elementary genetics class. I said food is just a part of a whole, in regards to environment.

Understanding the variation between individual organisms is a common goal of geneticists. Even laboratory organisms, which have a high degree of genetic similarity because they have been inbred for many generations, behave differently under the same conditions. For example, perhaps one mouse has eight pups and her sister has six, or one fruit fly lives for 31 days while another lives for just 13. Similarly, among humans, even "identical" twins who are raised together in nearly the same environment are never truly identical (Newman et al., 1937). Even though such twins are indeed the same at the genetic sequence level, people who know them can easily tell them apart. This is because the individuality and variation we observe in each organism is generated through a complex interaction between the organism's "complete genetic endowment" and its environment from conception onward (Hirsch, 1963

"Your cousin should go back to school and take an elementary genetics class."

Classy - I'm out

Matt_Potter wrote:"Your cousin should go back to school and take an elementary genetics class."

Classy - I'm out

Sir,

I believe ya came to the conversation looking for a pissin match. And my advice would be never come looking for a gun fight with your cap gun. You took very little from what your cousin said. And went on your own rant. Taking nothing from your cousin or JTG. Now ya can take your ball and bat and run home. Or ya can hang around and possibly learn from both your cousin and JTG. Makes no difference to anyone, but you may be part of the reason for so many poor pups around the country.


Take care, Willie

Folks,

As with most Threads on here, Participants should "Check their Egos" at the Door!

There is much to learn from all parts of this Thread....going back to the beginning...then reading the latest Posts.....there is much to be gleamed here!

One of the best things to let soak in is that many Factors IMPACT on the development of a Hound....even from the moment of Conception!

Most people do not have the Time, Money, Experience, or Wherewithal to do a long term Line/In Breeding Program....it takes Decades to BEGIN to show promise unless you start with Lines from existing Programs.

JTG, Cobalt, Festus, Willie and some Others are or have been committed to producing more Litters who consistently have all Pups produce Quality Hounds. They are people who truly "Know Where Of They Speak"......listen close to what they have to say.

Old Wives tales should NOT be a reason to NOT engage in a Line Breeding Program, and Genetics SHOULD always be in Mind.

Just food for thought. But going to back to Matt's comment. I spent a good portion of my life riding bulls. I took it to a professional levels. Funny that as generations pass u keep hearing the same last names. I know that in that world be it genetics or opportunity the same family keeps producing athletes at professional levels. Now I also no some professional hockey players and I'd say around 30-40% of them had parents who played hockey at professional levels. I no we are not dogs. But don't tell me micheal Jordan's kids aren't more likely to be basketball players there are.

I think most of it is luck in the cross. Next is the exposure and chance you give the pups when they are raised. I have never had the balls to yet try a cross of my own hounds. I dont have the patience or money to attempt it. I definately am not a guy to get a hyped up line of dogs and catch a critter or two then get a puppy mill rollin. i was raisdd on a ranch where my family bred and raised quarter horses, bucking horses, paint horses, long horn cows, bucking cows and bulls and a few hatch, greys, butcher and blue rooster. I got a good look at how genetics play a role in a strain of all the above species. Theres a ton of factors that come into play while choosing broodstock. You can make a chart and hype yourself and others up to the outcome but alot has to do with luck. IMO. Beecause you and I and them have all seen where the best one on the ranch isnt always the best at passing on certain traits we were expecting. And why cant it just be that easy!? About the cowboying and bullriding in the last post. Not totallying trying to piss you off but here is my life story: my whole biological family played basketball on my dads side. Whole family were farmers and hounders on my moms side. Parents split and my new adopted dad took over when I was about three. He was a.cowboy, horseman, rancher and was into martial arts. Long story shortened. My older sister played ball and ran a few barrels and in my high school days i became a four time medallist at state wrestling, in high school i was a state winner in the bares, and still continue to do some pretty intense horsein and houndin around. Where did the wrestling and bareback riding come from? Just a lot of luck and alot of exposure in those events. But whos to say if my best friend was raised that way he wouldnt be an olympic wrestler and at the NFR.? A lot of bs, but blame it on jtg for making me feel like I fit in with some rooster talk. Good luck!

Rez,

You are right in that, there's lots of things in play. Luck is part of it, but with science, it’s either a theory or a fact, and with good breeding practices, you can make your own luck. With family breeding, what you are trying to accomplish, is to increase your luck or odds of success, and you will if you are willing to stick with it. If you took one of those blue gamefowl and cross it with a gray, it would be very hard to breed back “pure”, just like it would be very hard to breed a bluetick to a plot and breed back pure. If you cross either the blue or the gray, with a laying hen over and over, well you know what the outcome would be.
The example with your family is not the same, because there is much genetic diversity,(variation of inheritable characteristics found in a population of the same species.) because your family, in hounds terms is an outcross.
If you look at anyone’s family, there is so much difference between siblings and cousins and the rest of the extended family, geneticist view this as genetic variation, the normal differences that exist among individuals of the same species, results in the variety in the offspring.
Prior to birth, you can predict, how much milk, a Holstein cow will produce on an average during her lifetime, you can do the same type of prediction, with bucking bulls or anything else , it’s a mathematical calculation with a predictable outcome. To be a state wrestler it comes from something deep down inside you and the environment always has a vote. If you were living in the Congo your whole life, it would be a little harder to reach that level in wrestling.

Has anybody on here ever owned two real good male dogs and just came breeding them back and forth to each others daughters for several generations and if so what were the outcomes?