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Ok I have decided to chime in on this topic. Usually I just like to read the comments on these topics, but this one has really opened up a lot of good conversations.



Back before the DWR opened up the harvest objective units the lion population could handle a few females to be killed, because of the limited number of permits. (the good old days) Now it is a race to hurry and get a lion killed before the unit closes, a lot of people say well if I don't kill a female someone else will. They are just going to ruin a sport for a kill.



The unit that is near where I live has been a harvest unit since day one. The first couple of years it filled up in a hurry now only one or two lions are killed off of it yearly (I think some are killed on other units and claimed here). I have not caught a lion on it for two years, seen some old tracks but it has not been good to me at all.



Ok now to my point, before they started killing all the lions off of this unit there was a few deer on it. By the way it is a limited entry unit for deer. Now there is far less deer on it. You never see any fawns with the does and the population is in the dirt. They can not tell me that killing all the lions off of it has helped it at all. We see coyote tracks up where we use to never see them before. I can honestly say that the coyotes kill 10 times or more of the deer than the lions do.



I talked to the biologist and he could not give me an answer. I told him there was a huge coyote problem, and to come with me and I would show him. I think it meant he would have to leave his office and the donuts so he was not for it. He said they where trying to get some coyotes killed off of it.



The only effective way to kill enough coyotes off of an area is to use a helicopter or poison them. I spent enough time calling dogs to know that trying to call them in the mountains is not very successful. If you talk to the government hunters they will tell you that in order to do any good 70% of the coyotes need to be killed.



I know the head of the DNR and me and another hound guy have been hammering him every chance we get. We all need to let our voices be heard and try to police ourselves.



Lets keep topics like this going and try to educate people the best we can

It shouldn't be up to the dwr to back off the killing of female's. Never heard off the division taking anybody out on a lion hunt. The people lining up to buy lion tags are the guys that don't have hounds.We've had enough years of open harvest that most guys have killed all they want to. You can only wallpaper so many rooms with a lion hide.So it makes sense to me that if houndsmen would pull a few ethics out of their ass and quit taking every tom ,dick,and harry that offered them a bag of dog food we would have our lion population back.Same thing with outfitters,their not above the rest of us.For every guy that makes a living being a lion guide i'll bet their are a hundred that fail.In the late 80's and early 90's I could catch 40 lions a year and tag out on bobcats every year.You could finish a dog by the time he was done with his third year.You could make more money selling finished dogs than you could guiding and have a lot more fun so i quit guiding.As far as guides saying its the hunter who killed the female or its legal i call bullshit.If you're the one with the dogs ,YOUR THE ONE RESPONSIBLE.Guides can't be very proud of killing females,you don't very often see pics of a client holding a 65lb. sub adult or a 90lb female up on their trophy room websites, SO WHY KILL THEM.Best to just call them out and let them try to justify it to all the guys in their area .Might just shame one of them into not killing anything but toms .Nothing else seems to be working. I just seen an add on the classified section here of a guy that wants 500 dollars more to kill a female than a tom , so is that going to make it ok? There aren't very many things in this world that can't be taken away from a guy .Ethics and morales are two of them and mine ain't for sale

tod watterson wrote:It shouldn't be up to the dwr to back off the killing of female's. Never heard off the division taking anybody out on a lion hunt. The people lining up to buy lion tags are the guys that don't have hounds.We've had enough years of open harvest that most guys have killed all they want to. You can only wallpaper so many rooms with a lion hide.So it makes sense to me that if houndsmen would pull a few ethics out of their ass and quit taking every tom ,dick,and harry that offered them a bag of dog food we would have our lion population back.Same thing with outfitters,their not above the rest of us.For every guy that makes a living being a lion guide i'll bet their are a hundred that fail.In the late 80's and early 90's I could catch 40 lions a year and tag out on bobcats every year.You could finish a dog by the time he was done with his third year.You could make more money selling finished dogs than you could guiding and have a lot more fun so i quit guiding.As far as guides saying its the hunter who killed the female or its legal i call bullshit.If you're the one with the dogs ,YOUR THE ONE RESPONSIBLE.Guides can't be very proud of killing females,you don't very often see pics of a client holding a 65lb. sub adult or a 90lb female up on their trophy room websites, SO WHY KILL THEM.Best to just call them out and let them try to justify it to all the guys in their area .Might just shame one of them into not killing anything but toms .Nothing else seems to be working. I just seen an add on the classified section here of a guy that wants 500 dollars more to kill a female than a tom , so is that going to make it ok? There aren't very many things in this world that can't be taken away from a guy .Ethics and morales are two of them and mine ain't for sale

100% awesome post. Plenty around here would do well to follow this post. pull your head outa your ass guys.

Who is the guy advertising on here with the $500 Female special ?

It must be this guy!!!!!!

NM ARROWHEADOUTFITTERS 500 DOLLAR KILL FEE MIKE BENCY

rebel2 wrote:I am aware that chilcoin hillbilly killed a female.......................it killed his dog. I have the numbers for the cats killed in region four. Permit holders kill maybe 5% of tom, not females.oufitters killed 47% this year. locals killed the rest. over 100 cats killed there this year. It is wrong that any outfitter can bring in 6-8 cat hunters a year.They should be on a quota system that allows 2 cats per area.It also depends on the morales of the houndsmen and what hes gonns let die over his dogs, and lately there isnt very good morales around here.JMO.How can places like Alberta grow giant toms year after year????? Proper management. Plain and simple. we have a 35 female quota or somthing stupid like that, no tom quota.To me thats a reason to decimate the population, not control.JMO again. If 80 % of the houndsmen got on the no black dot dont shoot horse, the other 20% might open their eyes too. Yes I agree females need to be killed to balance the population. We have enough incidentals every year to make up for it and with guys like vince and nathan they will have them all taken care of in the next 4 years anyways......................

You didnt answer the question, since you cant hunt cougar kittens or any cougar in its company in B.C. what did the COs do when you reported these people shooting a female with kittens. Maybe the cats attacked his dogs and he killed them you seem to be allright with that.
Havent seen a harvest report for this year but since your not even sure what the quota is I will wait till I do to see if your numbers are accurate. Not sure where you come up with your 5% never seen them publish that before maybe its new for this year.

He got reported and its still under investigation as far as I know, but knowing our government he wil get off. He also killed the female a few km's out of his area and that shows on the tracks of the guy that reported him gps. I dont agree with killing a female cause it killed your dog, as I dont agree with killing a female with a client. 3 different set ups for female quotas. one set of units is 20 females, the other one is 10 females and the last one is also 10 females. you can look on page 50 of your BC regulations. As soon as i can find the piece of paper with the kills on it for region 4 i will post them. Every tom/female that is killed as non-resident is stated from fish and wildlife.

B/T wrote:

rebel2 wrote:I am aware that chilcoin hillbilly killed a female.......................it killed his dog. I have the numbers for the cats killed in region four. Permit holders kill maybe 5% of tom, not females.oufitters killed 47% this year. locals killed the rest. over 100 cats killed there this year. It is wrong that any outfitter can bring in 6-8 cat hunters a year.They should be on a quota system that allows 2 cats per area.It also depends on the morales of the houndsmen and what hes gonns let die over his dogs, and lately there isnt very good morales around here.JMO.How can places like Alberta grow giant toms year after year????? Proper management. Plain and simple. we have a 35 female quota or somthing stupid like that, no tom quota.To me thats a reason to decimate the population, not control.JMO again. If 80 % of the houndsmen got on the no black dot dont shoot horse, the other 20% might open their eyes too. Yes I agree females need to be killed to balance the population. We have enough incidentals every year to make up for it and with guys like vince and nathan they will have them all taken care of in the next 4 years anyways......................

You didnt answer the question, since you cant hunt cougar kittens or any cougar in its company in B.C. what did the COs do when you reported these people shooting a female with kittens. Maybe the cats attacked his dogs and he killed them you seem to be allright with that.
Havent seen a harvest report for this year but since your not even sure what the quota is I will wait till I do to see if your numbers are accurate. Not sure where you come up with your 5% never seen them publish that before maybe its new for this year.

Sorry big guy. rebel2's numbers are pretty damn close. oh.. harvest report.. published.. where are u from? oh... and... pretty hard to sex a cat when it's eating one of your dogs. I am against shooting females but when it is on a dog..

I agree Tod, we that love the sport need to take up the fight. The problem is there are to many deer hunters that own hounds.

You would not believe how many friends I have the end of Sept, and the first part of October. Guys who would not say boo to me all year but they sure are sucking up when it's time to put in for tags. They will usually say hey do you need someone to get a tag, I'll be glad to help you out and put in for one. WTF if I want to see a lion die I'll get a tag myself. I'll tell them ok, but you'll have to furnish your own horse and it will have to be a nice tom. Oh and I'll tell you if you can shoot or not. They usually say oh I don't care how big it is and a female is ok. They just don't understand.

A few years ago my daughter wanted to harvest a lion, she knew up front it would be a hard hunt with long hours. She also knew it would have to be a nice tom. It took us until the 17th day of hunting before she got her lion. She knows more about hunting lions and there habits than all the kitten killers in this state. It was long hours and many miles on the horses, but she has a lion she can be proud of.

If more deer hunters who own dogs and greedy guides ( I don't mean all guides) would get called out on this issue maybe we could slow it down.

Tod Watterson,

Bob Baldwin JR,

For you two guys...especially Tod, that seem to be interested in how I'm operating things with the Outfit...this is how it works so you don't get it all twisted up. Its not a SPECIAL. Its an addition to the total cost of a tom lion hunt which were charging $2500 a Tom lion. The Kill Fee of $500 is to detour people from wanting to kill females and on top of that I let it be known that its discouraged and that the real trophies are the big toms. When you hunt the dirt you cant justify what your going to be catching, so this is to help that situation out. I also run the same program on bears too, if your interested in that as well.

Mike
505-363-2767 Cell Phone

If you have any other questions then call me and ill make it more clear for you. I'm heading out hunting now for the rest of the week so I wont be on here.

And by the way add me to your list as well.

Happy Hunting.

Todd & 1963,
Its the true and pure houndsmen like you all that we @ the UHA represent.

You all are the guys that have seen what has gone on. Not reading any horn hunters trophy mag or being spoonfed by some clown that that has no idea. ZERO increases have been found in utahs deer heard by killin mass amounts of lions.

WHY CONTINUE???

3 ISSUES TO ADDRESS

1. Unethical houndsmen & guides............US

2.Educating the next generation.............US

3.Over the counter permits (that continue to have a couple per year over harvested)................. UDWR

JOIN THE UTAH HOUNDSMEN ASSOCIATION.

bency wrote:Tod Watterson,

Bob Baldwin JR,

For you two guys...especially Tod, that seem to be interested in how I'm operating things with the Outfit...this is how it works so you don't get it all twisted up. Its not a SPECIAL. Its an addition to the total cost of a tom lion hunt which were charging $2500 a Tom lion. The Kill Fee of $500 is to detour people from wanting to kill females and on top of that I let it be known that its discouraged and that the real trophies are the big toms. When you hunt the dirt you cant justify what your going to be catching, so this is to help that situation out. I also run the same program on bears too, if your interested in that as well.

Mike
505-363-2767 Cell Phone

If you have any other questions then call me and ill make it more clear for you. I'm heading out hunting now for the rest of the week so I wont be on here.

And by the way add me to your list as well.

Happy Hunting.

or just grow a pair and say no femails You guys give those hunts away. no wonder you shoot the first cat you tree.

bency wrote:Tod Watterson,

Bob Baldwin JR,

For you two guys...especially Tod, that seem to be interested in how I'm operating things with the Outfit...this is how it works so you don't get it all twisted up. Its not a SPECIAL. Its an addition to the total cost of a tom lion hunt which were charging $2500 a Tom lion. The Kill Fee of $500 is to detour people from wanting to kill females and on top of that I let it be known that its discouraged and that the real trophies are the big toms. When you hunt the dirt you cant justify what your going to be catching, so this is to help that situation out. I also run the same program on bears too, if your interested in that as well.

Mike
505-363-2767 Cell Phone

If you have any other questions then call me and ill make it more clear for you. I'm heading out hunting now for the rest of the week so I wont be on here.

And by the way add me to your list as well.

Happy Hunting.

Mike seems to be a stand up guy and more should follow his lead. You guys want a list, I propose a list of guys that claim they aren't going to kill any more bitches in the future. That list should look like this so we'll know who those people are and can verify they speak the truth:

(bluedog) real name, "Joe Blow". I live in Salt Lake City and will not allow anybody to kill bitches over my dogs..