New Utah Bear Laws

[LCK]

Kind of makes me wonder why it is reccomended that guides and outfitters are reccomended to be exempt from the rest of us. Hmmmmmm, could it be they are the ones doing all the complaining? Could it be they are the ones who think they "own" the game and area they have permits in? Could it be because they make money from using PUBLIC land and killing PUBLIC game that they somehow have more of an intrerest in using PUBLIC resource than the average Joe who has a job and only trys to use PUBLIC land on his days off? Makes me wonder why they should be exempt? I kind of wonder if it isn't maybe the giudes and outfitters who really don't like "part timers" out there "educating" all those bear they are counting on killing come kill season. There goes a good paycheck if they can't catch that bear thats been run all summer by a fellow and his friends and family for fun, who don't care about cashing a check for killing the critter. They just maybe want to get their dogs on a few bear and take a photo or two. Or maybe it's just me, but I dang sure could care less aboput guides and outfitters and I dang sure don't think I owe them anything.

I do hope the DWR reads this post.

[hounddude]

Kind of makes me wonder why it is reccomended that guides and outfitters are reccomended to be exempt from the rest of us. Hmmmmmm, could it be they are the ones doing all the complaining? Could it be they are the ones who think they "own" the game and area they have permits in? Could it be because they make money from using PUBLIC land and killing PUBLIC game that they somehow have more of an intrerest in using PUBLIC resource than the average Joe who has a job and only trys to use PUBLIC land on his days off? Makes me wonder why they should be exempt? I kind of wonder if it isn't maybe the giudes and outfitters who really don't like "part timers" out there "educating" all those bear they are counting on killing come kill season. There goes a good paycheck if they can't catch that bear thats been run all summer by a fellow and his friends and family for fun, who don't care about cashing a check for killing the critter. They just maybe want to get their dogs on a few bear and take a photo or two. Or maybe it's just me, but I dang sure could care less aboput guides and outfitters and I dang sure don't think I owe them anything.

I do hope the DWR reads this post.

They'll probley let the SFW sell a few to there rich bubby's in the name of habit. Utah is the poster child for let's rape the game to make a few buck. They need to get a handle on there outtfitting laws. Maybe it's time to restrict the outtfitting. Let's find a big bull. Sent some photo's to some rich dude's. Let them buy one of our habitat tags. Then for a few grand we'll have 15 guys watch it for a few months. We'll do what we need to to keep the average Joe away from our pay check. Then we'll load up the master hunter for the kill and photos. Utah at it's fines.

[LCK]

Kind of makes me wonder why it is reccomended that guides and outfitters are reccomended to be exempt from the rest of us. Hmmmmmm, could it be they are the ones doing all the complaining? Could it be they are the ones who think they "own" the game and area they have permits in? Could it be because they make money from using PUBLIC land and killing PUBLIC game that they somehow have more of an intrerest in using PUBLIC resource than the average Joe who has a job and only trys to use PUBLIC land on his days off? Makes me wonder why they should be exempt? I kind of wonder if it isn't maybe the giudes and outfitters who really don't like "part timers" out there "educating" all those bear they are counting on killing come kill season. There goes a good paycheck if they can't catch that bear thats been run all summer by a fellow and his friends and family for fun, who don't care about cashing a check for killing the critter. They just maybe want to get their dogs on a few bear and take a photo or two. Or maybe it's just me, but I dang sure could care less aboput guides and outfitters and I dang sure don't think I owe them anything.

I do hope the DWR reads this post.

They'll probley let the SFW sell a few to there rich bubby's in the name of habit. Utah is the poster child for let's rape the game to make a few buck. They need to get a handle on there outtfitting laws. Maybe it's time to restrict the outtfitting. Let's find a big bull. Sent some photo's to some rich dude's. Let them buy one of our habitat tags. Then for a few grand we'll have 15 guys watch it for a few months. We'll do what we need to to keep the average Joe away from our pay check. Then we'll load up the master hunter for the kill and photos. Utah at it's fines.

AMEN!

[Ike]

Utah did pass a guide bill this past year and now (starting January 10, 2010) they'll have another law to impose on the public. In the past, it was the Forest Service, The BLM, and SITLA who regulated guides on their lands. But thanks to the outfitters, or SFW, or maybe just DWR, those same guides now have to buy and get permitted through the state--gotta love it man! Yup, I think they are gonna get a handle on the guides and outfitters now.......yup, the day is coming when a guy will have to have a permit to take a dump in the woods or pack it out............

ike

[Yard Dog]

Utah Law requires the owner and handler of dogs being used to pursue bear to have a valid pursuit permit. If the recomendations are passed by the DWR and guides are exempt, the guides need to give their local DWR official a big fat kiss. Even if your buddy, cousin, uncle, ect. is able to draw a kill tag for these units, you will not be able to use your hounds to help him unless you happen to be lucky enough to draw one of these limited entry pursuit permits yourself. Technically you might not be able to take your own kid hunting. Instead hunters who draw kill tags on these units will either have to bait, spot and stock or, ARE YOU READY, hire a guide pay out thousands....

Looks like the DWR has done more to boost business for the guides in one swoop than all the advertising over the last ten years in thier proclamations.. And all this will lead to is more illegal baiting.

Amazing!!!!!!!!

[Bigbear]

When i attend the RAC meeting i have a few questions for them also i would like to ask them if they feel if there wasting thier time by having these meetings some say that they already have thier minds made up and everything is drawn up and us hunters are just wasting our time. (Who knows) Next would be if we are allowed to haul more than 8 dogs around, are we hunting by just hauling dogs? Or will we be allowed to have extra at camp because this is where it all started from is people camping and hiking, jeeping and they complain our dogs are barking or possibly running through there camp while on a bear that was in there camp because they left the trash out or coolers everywhere and wonder why our dogs come so close to the camps? Next is what if i turn on a bear track in one canyon and someone starts the same track 2 over from this and our dogs get together will we be fined? Maybe im just rambling but these are just a few of my thoughts and questions.

[Yard Dog]

The DWR contends their reasoning for limiting the number of bear pursuit permits in these units are that they "have recieved more than 150 complaints from campers, hikers, and others who were recreating in the area". They also state that "the noise and commotion the hounds and houndsmen were causing bothered some people who were recreating in the area". They offer these reasons and these reasons alone for wanting to limit pusuit permits.
I have not hunted in the La Sal or San Jaun units and have no knowledge of the situation there, however for the Bookcliffs unit I know without a doubt this is B.S.
I have never seen a mountain biker, bird watcher or flower picker down there. I contacted recreation officials from the BLM Vernal office and was told that while they do have some concerns over dirty campsites that they have had no complaints of barking dogs or noise caused by houndsmen. Remember these are the reasons the DWR wants to restrict permits.
I know that the San Jaun and La Sal units are closer to all the enviromentalists around Moab and, justified or not, probably have had complaints from the granola eaters. But I know as many from the basin do that these groups are not in the Bookcliffs. Their electric cars wont make it down there until they get the road paved!
Knowing this one would have to ask why the Bookcliffs are being lumped in with these other two units? Who benefits from these restrictions? And why?
I do not believe any of these untits should be restricted and that the DWR has other agendas they want to push. I could be mistaken but after looking up the members on the North East RAC commitee, I believe at least 3 of them work for fedral agencies.
Again who benifits? My opinion is guides, outfitters and tree huggers.

[Ike]

You have a good point Yard Dog when saying there isn't any recreation going on in the Book Cliffs during the summer months. However, I assure you if they limit the pursuit on the San Juan and La Sal Units all of those other hounddoggers will flock to that unit and it'll be a mess. The only two solutions is no limits or limit all three.

What I'd like to see is somebody gather the data from DWR on how many people are using each unit in the past few years and how the future numbers they have proposed compares use in the past. Say for instance the Book Cliffs, they plan to let 25 resident and three non-resident permits (or 28 total) so how many have been using this area in the summer month? I think we need that question answered so we know how restrictive they are wanting to be on hounds.......

And maybe I misread, but I thought DWR was only looking to limit the summer pursuit season not the spring bear hunt or pursuit. Therefore, anybody could still buy a pusuit permit for the spring units and be available to help friends hunt and kill. I guess I fail to see where the summer pursuit favors a bguide cause there isn't any killing then.......

[Yard Dog]

Point taken Ike, The DWR site does say summer. Hopefully the sping season will be left alone. That being said I veiw any restriction as a bad thing. If they leave the Bookcliffs open and close the La Sal and San Jaun Units hunters will flock to the Bookcliffs. And if they close the Bookcliffs the boys from the basin are going to go north and I think we all know that that will turn out with the Forest Service. The fact is that it is a dominoe effect and the DWR gets to draw the line. Not Good.

[Ike]

Agreed! It's like what happened when DWR bowed down and let non-residents bring their hounds into Utah--the beginning of the end. Only one fall bear pursuit and DWR shut the door on fall bear pursuit. If DWR closes those three units, then houndsmen will flock to any unit they can and within the next year or two they'll all be limited entry on the summer pursuit season. I'll agree that the houndsmen should show up in force and raise all billy hell with DWR and nor roll over for them. The land doesn't belong to DWR, only the bears, and they are attempting to manage land use with this action and move us out of the way of campers and tree huggers. We have as much right to recreation in those areas as any body else. If these limits on bear pursuit are passed, then plan on limits on all summer units in the coming years.............

And I'd also say that each and every one of us should fight the spot and stalk hunting on bears in the Roadless Area of the Book Cliffs. There again we are being pushed out so another group can take over. Presently, any body that draws a tag can spot and stalk bears on any unit they want so why push us out???????????????

ike

[Bearkiller]

I'll be at the Vernal RAC meeting, for all the good it will do. I, too, am opposed to all of the changes. Although they will have little impact on me personally. This seems to me like appeasment to the outfitters. I personally don't understand how some of you guys hunt with the big crews and scores of dogs. Its hard for me to enjoy. If you guys like it then more power to you. That said, like hounddawg said, I am opposed to giving even a little bit. The main reason I am opposed is actually because of the new hunters. Although I only have 5 hounds, I will rarely leave a dog at home so a new guy could bring his dogs. Its selfish but hunting days are getting harder and harder to come by. Does anyone know where the 8 dogs limit came from? Is it an arbitrary number or is it based on science? Is there any proof that 6 dogs will educate bears anymore than 1 dog? Or less than 10 dogs? Dewain, will there be an official representative from the Uintah Basin Big Game Houndsmen?

[Bigbear]

ya bearkiller ill be there for the ubbg and i have sent out fliers to everbody that i could think of and had addresses for

[Yard Dog]

I hate to beat a dead horse but even if they are only proposing limit entry pursuit tags for the summer season, it smells like a trial run for what they will eventually push for on the spring and fall seasons.

[Ike]

Often people believe DWR has an agenda which may well not be what is really going on. My take is DWR gets enough complaints about an issue which results in mandate to make management changes to eliminate the problem. Fall pursuit was never an issue until the state was forced by a lawsuit from non-resident houndsmen to allow them to come run dogs in this state. Now think about it a minute, the problem areas border Colorado which is a state that doesn't allow bear pursuit. Once Utah opened the doors to non-resident houndsmen it only took ONE year for them to close the fall pursuit season.

Somebody said DWR had received over a hundred and fifty complaints in those areas, and that is what evoked the changes in bear pursuit. I'll call DWR tomorrow and run down some numbers on previous use in those areas and see how many hounddoggers DWR says were using those areas in the summer pursuit, then post up if I get those numbers. Bottom line is the Wildlife Board is going to help DWR eliminate this problem. What would be nice is if DWR would tell the public these problems exist and give us a chance to spread out and cut back on hounds without new laws, but I guess that's too much to ask.......

ike

[lionhunterdaves]

Ike,

How is letting the out of state houdsmen the begining of the end? I am from colorado and love to pursue bears on the san juans and la sals. I am just as respectful and take just as much care of the mountains as you locals do. I am not trying to make anyone mad but don't see how its our fault. We don't break any laws or mess with anyone else. And when I say we I talk for the guys I hunt with. From what I've saw we take more care and show just as much or more respect than some of the locals. Maybe because we aren't able to hunt bears in colorado. Just don't see how it is the out of stater fault.