BigGameHoundsmen.com

Well thanks for the clarification TonyAbbott. My apologies for mixing up the two. The rest of my comments I also stand by...

Good luck to you and your radio show!

Well Bear Your question was more of a rhetorical question meant to shut me down. I did not call this a little bitch website I said I see why my father in law calls it that. The female killers thread I started was for the most part free of drama. I simply called someone out and it went on from there. I did make one post that somewhat regret but I did include myself when I said it does not take much to ignite peples emotions on this website, which is apparent isnt it... I happen to like getting on the website there is some helpful info, but it is threads like this that blow up and make it feel like a "little bitch website". I hope in the end that this all works out in our favor instead of blowing up in our faces....

I have been reading all the comments bashing tony it seems to me we would be better off calling him afriend instead of an enemy were needing all the friends we can get it is no secret deer have been over hunted for years a mismanged 2 point herd but on the other hand the lion has been over hunted for years what I call mature toms have been killed years ago just cause he weighs 150 pounds dont make him grown look at colage football and the pros 2 years make alot of differnce Ihave been at this game 35 years two sons have done it wth me the youngest one is 23 and never seen what I call a mature tom tony let me no I will try but at least ill be doing postive things to help

Sackett wrote:

HoundDawg wrote: There are about as many deer left as there are lions, at least we know what happened to our lions. They still have no ***** idea where their deer went.

He'd know what to do.

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.ph ... did=413327

That's a stupid comment dawg, to imply managers at DWR don't have a clue as to what happened to the deer herds. Last I knew all of them could read and you can bet they've all done their homework on past deer studies, but politics and budgets come into play and employees can't always do what is best for wildlife. By the time all the special interest groups (the takers) have their say their isn't much say left!!!!!

You guys want your lion population back and to have DWR and SFW back off the pressure on lions either fork out some money for coyote removal and spend you time in the field removing them yourself instead of flapping your jaws on this board.

The quality of mule deer habitat is the major factor in determining herd size.

Our problem is not the DWR. It is SFW and the RAc members that can't see the real factors that determine our herd size. Although predation can be a factor it is not our biggest problem by any means.

The Book Cliffs has changed little over time, and there is winter range that hasn't had a deer on it in years. DWR will tell you that the limiting factor for deer and elk in the Book Cliffs is summer range, but if that's so why did we have a herd ten times the size of today's herds with cattle and domestic sheep all over it in the 50s and 60s? That range doesn't have a 1/10th the pressure on it it had back then so crying habitat is a empty bucket.

What has changed in the Book Cliffs since the 50s and 60s is the Federal Government outlawed poison and we now have bears and coyotes in the mix. Bears draw alot of attention and people buy tags and enjoy those animals; coyotes on the other hand have little interest and you couldn't sell a tag to anybody. The point of that little article Dennis wrote was to show that pressure can be put on coyotes and maybe help a struggling deer herd, but in the end know that Dennis doesn't have a dog in this fight and hasn't bought a deer tag since about 1996.

Habitat doesn't wash with me, sorry! The regional wildlife manager for DWR told me nearly twenty years ago the state of Utah doesn't have enough money to kill enough coyotes to ever bring back the deer herd without poison which is not legal. Therefore, because of diverse interest (meaning people want bears and lions, and because of our inability to remove the coyote) the State of Utah will never have a deer herd like they had in the 50s and 60s.

The deer management plans that were passed back in the early 90s targeted a herd size of the eighties, but in my opinion we have far fewer deer than we had then. I seldom find a lion killed deer anymore, and in fact they seem rare. What I do find is yearling fawns dead all over the winter range with coyote tracks on them.

I'm not going to run SFW down because they've done a lot of good things such as remove half the deer hunters back in the 90s, push through Proposition 5 which helped save hounding in this state (and if you don't know about that google Prop 5 and read). And today SFW has been in an ongoing battle to prevent the wolf from becoming part of our protected wildlife in this state. However, by buying out those sheep and cattle allotments from ranchers they removed the opportunity for ADC to kill coyotes in those areas and possibly inadvertently hurt the deer herds by allowing coyotes back into those areas. To their credit they have raised money for coyote removal but like DWR said, "Utah doesn't have enough money to kill enough coyotes to recover our deer herds of old.

Granted places like the Wasatch Front where housing removes winter range is a problem, but not in places like San Juan Elk Ridge or the Books, as there are other factors at work an it isn't lack of winter range.........

Ok guys hears idea....I'm going to meet with tony and I will be joining in on his radio show....if you have any ideas or things you would like us to discuss....this is an opertunty to let the general public now what true houndsmen and lion hunting is all about......email me plottdogs73@gmail.com

Mr. Abbott, I am baffled as to what exactly you are "offering" Utah Hound Owners. I don't frequent these online forums but happened to be on and read your post. I must say my first initial reaction was that of being insulted as a Utah Hound Owner and second thought was "wow this guy is an arrogant, insolent red headed cur" I had to sit back for a moment and realize that you must have been put in a situation that has left you feeling attacked and you hastily reacted in a panic to mask your own fears and shortcomings by passivly aggressivly assailing upon Utah Hound Owners (as a whole) through your post. I'm astounded that you did not methodically contemplate upon the decorum of which you presented your post and the image in which you would be percieved as a person in your public position here IN Utah not to mention the image in which reflects upon whom and what you are representing. There is a significant issue at hand that could be addressed in a sophisticated manner but after reading your post(s) I have doubts that you are legitimately "offering" Utah Hound Owners an opportunity to educate the public, instead I am left feeling that you display the behaviour of a Haughty person, whom is known to be narrow-minded and often believe that they have all the right answers which is unfortunate that they often overlook good advice and information from others. There are one or two reliable hound owners that have posted a response to attend your show and I would hope that you would validate and respect their advice and information if they do make an appearance. By the way, advice or information your seeking doesn't need to be from a president or someone with a title, it needs to be from someone who is authentic to the sport, to themselves and others and not come from internet houndsman that hunt online instead of outdoors.

Sackett wrote:The Book Cliffs has changed little over time, and there is winter range that hasn't had a deer on it in years. DWR will tell you that the limiting factor for deer and elk in the Book Cliffs is summer range, but if that's so why did we have a herd ten times the size of today's herds with cattle and domestic sheep all over it in the 50s and 60s? That range doesn't have a 1/10th the pressure on it it had back then so crying habitat is a empty bucket.

The 50's and 60's had one thing in common and that was great habitat throughout the state. Why because of all the fires from the turn of the century which resulted good feed in the 60's. Are winter ranges are covered with 30-40 year old shrubs with no new growth.

Sackett wrote:What has changed in the Book Cliffs since the 50s and 60s is the Federal Government outlawed poison and we now have bears and coyotes in the mix. Bears draw alot of attention and people buy tags and enjoy those animals; coyotes on the other hand have little interest and you couldn't sell a tag to anybody. The point of that little article Dennis wrote was to show that pressure can be put on coyotes and maybe help a struggling deer herd, but in the end know that Dennis doesn't have a dog in this fight and hasn't bought a deer tag since about 1996.

You are correct there has been a increase in coyotes since they stopped poisoning and there has also been a huge increase in elk.

Sackett wrote:Habitat doesn't wash with me, sorry! The regional wildlife manager for DWR told me nearly twenty years ago the state of Utah doesn't have enough money to kill enough coyotes to ever bring back the deer herd without poison which is not legal. Therefore, because of diverse interest (meaning people want bears and lions, and because of our inability to remove the coyote) the State of Utah will never have a deer herd like they had in the 50s and 60s.

You are correct we will not see the herds we seen in the 60's but it isn't the coyotes it is Habitat.

Sackett wrote:The deer management plans that were passed back in the early 90s targeted a herd size of the eighties, but in my opinion we have far fewer deer than we had then. I seldom find a lion killed deer anymore, and in fact they seem rare. What I do find is yearling fawns dead all over the winter range with coyote tracks on them.

This same thing happens with bear you see a cow will flop over dead for what ever reason a day later a bear shows up to scavenge off the cow and then comes mister cowboy along to blame mr bear for the death of his cow. Are fawns are starving to death and until we figure out we are at capacity, nothing will be done.

Sorry but I don't buy any of that crap about habitat, just don't wash with me. In my opinion, if we shut down the deer hunt in the Book Cliffs and poisoned every bear and coyote on the range like was done in the study, had government trappers run down and kill every adult lion and kitten they could catch, in the same time period history would repeat itself again and the deer numbers would boom, no doubt in my mine!

Sackett wrote:Sorry but I don't buy any of that crap about habitat, just don't wash with me. In my opinion, if we shut down the deer hunt in the Book Cliffs and poisoned every bear and coyote on the range like was done in the study, had government trappers run down and kill every adult lion and kitten they could catch, in the same time period history would repeat itself again and the deer numbers would boom, no doubt in my mine!

Yes this seems to be the agenda for the deer hunters and it is sad because this attitude is what is holding back our Deer Herd I as much as anyone would love to see a ton of deer.
Why we think we can shoot our way out of this I don't know.

Your idea would work if we are not near capacity. But the truth of the matter is we are there and predator control will have little effect on our herd.

If you have ever feed cattle you will know that when you start feeding calves hay they dont just eat it all up they are primarily after only a portion of the bale the leaves and other good portions of it. The cows can eat the whole thing and do well. This is what is happening right know with are deer herd we have enough for mom to survive but not the right feed for our fawns. Fawn are then dieing not from predation but from starvation.

All the biologists I have talked to are saying we don't have enough feed why would they lie about that. I think it is plain obvious that habitat is very very important and not a bunch of crap.

Bplott wrote:Ok guys hears idea....I'm going to meet with tony and I will be joining in on his radio show....if you have any ideas or things you would like us to discuss....this is an opertunty to let the general public now what true houndsmen and lion hunting is all about......email me plottdogs73@gmail.com

I think we need to educate them on the fact that our deer herd is in such poor shape not because of the predators but because of the habitat and encroachment from humans and elk.
If you ask any deer hunter what happened to all the deer they will answer the lions ate them. We need to disprove that there isn't a bunch of lions out there.

If we can get our deer back we wont have as hard a time getting our lions back.

cya the 7th

tony abbott

A hollow cry ? like am radio? ignorant? How so? Calling every houndsmen ignorant, selfish etc. Is that not ignorant? how many houndsmen do you suppose there are in the USA? How many hours per year do you guess each one of those houndsmen log in the outdoors actively hunting? What exactly is it about houndsmen you find so ignorant?

After reading all this crap I have no desire to listen to any "Radio Show" that might be done on this subject. Seems to me that anyone that has a differing opinion from this guy is insulted by him. This is a forum for people to express their opinions, no matter how ignorant they may be. Don't think old Doug Miller did it this way......

cya the 7th

tony abbott