backwoods1 wrote:I heard some second hand stories about people returning culls an finding that same dog being bred years later, by the name on the papers. Like I said those are second an maybe even third hand stories!
In these cases I'd have to ask why the dog was sent back. There are lots of guys out there who cannot train bear dogs. They don't have the time, do not have the knowledge, cannot give the dogs the opportunities needEd...and have unreal expectations.
And, on top of that, they don't have the confidence in the breeding or the skill of training dogs that Steve does. I figure Steve has taken quite a few dogs over the years that others have sent back and made bear dogs out of them. Some guys have a knack for it. Can't fault the guy for that...
And as for the comment that was made about confirmation... Confirmation means nothing without desire.
I said nothing about desire. I said conformation means ability. Desire is how bad the dog wants to use its ability.
Like anything else, you have to look at the "Law of averages". You should speak to as many sources as you can before making a judgement. I can get you a dozen phone numbers or more of guys who hunt the ursus dogs. I also believe these folks will give you an honest assessment, without political bias.
As Steve White mentioned, the Ursus dogs are catching game in many different countries. This is a fact that is undisputable. If you contact Steve Mohr, I'm sure he could get you some contact info to guys oversees who are running his dogs.
Catch wrote:Doesn't confirmation make the performance? I do believe Ursus dogs work better in the East then the West. All in all, one needs to try one and see if they work. Just make sure all the details are discussed and signed.
Steve, you only know what you have been told. You are gullible to believe everything you have heard along with many others. There have been many cover ups in the Ursus line. You believe what you want, get some Ursus dogs and them post what you have learned. You stated you have never had one, so your facts come from???? You have over 4500 post on Plott web sites, so I give up. I had no idea I was dealing with such a expert.
Catch, Maybe we are looking at "Confirmation" differently, I don't know?
I think most would agree that (a dog with) excellent confirmation plus an extreme desire to kill the animal... would normally make for your "Top performer". Sadly, it's not always the case. You are right.. physical attributes and "Desire" are separate factors, and (in my opinion) are not necessarily linked in any given dog.
Arkansas Frog, I haven't tried any of Eugene's dogs. I know Joe personally. Joe's a good guy. Hard hunter, and has some good bear dogs.
Last edited by wvplott on Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Im not normally one to stir the pot, but i just got to ask you catch, why do you seem so confrontational on almost all the coments you make on this site,and other sites....alot of good conversations over the web turned into arguements. i just dont get it. i dont know how much you hunt or how much you "catch" and that doesnt matter, im sure theres worse hunters out there, and im sure theres better. i was also wondering what dogs you are hunting now, and how they compare on bear to the ursus dogs. Thanks
wvplott wrote:Catch, Maybe we are looking at "Confirmation" differently, I don't know?
I think most would agree that (a dog with) excellent confirmation plus an extreme desire to kill the animal... would normally make for your "Top performer". Sadly, it's not always the case. You are right.. physical attributes and "Desire" are separate factors, and (in my opinion) are not necessarily linked in any given dog.
Arkansas Frog, I haven't tried any of Eugene's dogs. I know Joe personally. Joe's a good guy. Hard hunter, and has some good bear dogs.
I look at conformation in a dog as in body make up. Straight, big chest, big front end, rounded powerful ass end. I believe if a dog is put together his performance and abilities are greater.
plott/walker wrote:Im not normally one to stir the pot, but i just got to ask you catch, why do you seem so confrontational on almost all the coments you make on this site,and other sites....alot of good conversations over the web turned into arguements. i just dont get it. i dont know how much you hunt or how much you "catch" and that doesnt matter, im sure theres worse hunters out there, and im sure theres better. i was also wondering what dogs you are hunting now, and how they compare on bear to the ursus dogs. Thanks
If telling the truth is confrontational I'm guilty. Most want to sugar coat so it appears they are part of that clique. I don't want to part of a clique, I want to be under a tree! I must say I do screw around with most of the Plott guys. You already know what I hunt.
I do take everthing I hear with a grain of salt, but I wanna hear both sides. No need to cover anything up. I don't thinks its right to cover up anything. All breeds have faults Iam not knocking anybody just wanna hear everbodys experiences!!
Turn'em loose- if were gonna loose them mine as well loose them all!
Catch wrote:I have had a bunch of them and the success rate is about 50%. The Ursus dogs are not proven on Lion or Bobcat. You could probably count on one hand how many lions Steve has caught with his dogs. Some have good noses and some don't. Some are slow, some are fast. Most seem to have a good amount of grit. Some are blocky, some are racy. The Ursus dogs in my opinion are all over the map in consistency. Just to many different lines involded in the Ursus dogs. From what I hear, you want the Ursus/Gantte dogs Steve is breeding. The Gantte dogs are bringing size and toughness to the table.
Make sure you understand the return plocy. The last I heard you must return the dog for a refund. I wonder where those dogs go? Second, make sure your pup is not a return pup. If you get a good one you will have somthing!
For those that have dogs that came from Steve, I sure would like to hunt with them.
Good luck, if you want more info PM me.
Here's his experience with the Ursus dogs, posted on page 1
backwoods1 wrote:I do take everthing I hear with a grain of salt, but I wanna hear both sides. No need to cover anything up. I don't thinks its right to cover up anything. All breeds have faults Iam not knocking anybody just wanna hear everbodys experiences!!
I agree 100% backwoods, believe nothing until you see it with your own eyes. Yes all breeds have faults, it just so happens today is about the Ursus dogs.
wvplott wrote:
Catch wrote:I have had a bunch of them and the success rate is about 50%. The Ursus dogs are not proven on Lion or Bobcat. You could probably count on one hand how many lions Steve has caught with his dogs. Some have good noses and some don't. Some are slow, some are fast. Most seem to have a good amount of grit. Some are blocky, some are racy. The Ursus dogs in my opinion are all over the map in consistency. Just to many different lines involded in the Ursus dogs. From what I hear, you want the Ursus/Gantte dogs Steve is breeding. The Gantte dogs are bringing size and toughness to the table.
Make sure you understand the return plocy. The last I heard you must return the dog for a refund. I wonder where those dogs go? Second, make sure your pup is not a return pup. If you get a good one you will have somthing!
For those that have dogs that came from Steve, I sure would like to hunt with them.
Good luck, if you want more info PM me.
Here's his experience with the Ursus dogs, posted on page 1
That is what I have learned. No sugar or confrontational, just how I saw it.
WV- You may be right in your thinking. It is Marshall Worthington.
Plott/Walker- You would be correct in your thinking.
Marshall- Posting on sites. Sharing experiences, and thoughts does not make one an expert. Just because I choose to spend my time on the computer learning, and sharing what I have learned does not make me an expert at anything. Knowledgeable perhaps, but not an expert. It is my belief when one claims to be an expert, they close themselves off to learning more. Just because of your personal problems with some of the Ursus owners does not condemn the line. Contrary to what your belief may be. I am not part of any clique.
There is no doubt this line of dogs has proven itself many times over several decades. I'm only guessing, but would bet there are hundreds of satisfied owners of these dogs. Used on all types of game all over the world. Sure there are going to be some bad ones. That's part of hunting dogs. Not all of them are going to turn out. Like I said I do not own any with the Ursus title. It is just the way things have worked themselves out over the years. I do have dogs with Ursus in them, and at least 1 that is as close as you can get without carrying that name. I have hunted behind several. Yes there were some good ones, and yes maybe a few that I did not feel would suit me. Still able to do the job the owners required though. Perhaps one day there will be a full Ursus dog in my kennel. Would not look past it at all. Nor should anyone else. Could do a lot worse.
Of course it is just my opinion for the little that it is worth.
