Better Dogs?

[Tim Pittman]

I can see this on a slow moving cat and little brush,along with adverse conditions,seeing them in the road etc. along with some of the other scenarios we all scratch our head on from time to time.But,if every piece of game was only trailed as fast as it was moving we would never catch traveling Toms that were not laid up,oh ya and most of the other cats also,right?Because time and distance is the only thing[most of the time]that stands in our way of getting game caught.I realize the front end of a track is different to what I'm about to compare to here but,what about when we see old cat coming down the ridge troting or loping along and the dogs are 200 yds behind and as the cat makes it to the road that was 250yds. in front of him and now the dogs are burning his back end and he climbs to save his self,what does this do for this theory,cause like the thick brush mentioned by some of the others from different states,I can assure you here on the coast THEY AIN'T LOOKING AT HIM most[95%+or-]of the time.I know we can't chaulk everything up to this but,I think if we as hunters are not carefull we get complacient and satisfied that this is just the way it is,when in reality the dogs could've/should've done a better job at closing the gap,shifting gears when the track stepped up in scentability.Coastrangecathunting said it the best one time"I hate it when a dog stands there,and gives tail,when they could be wheeling on down the track and get closer to catching that SOB".Many times I've thought how true,sometimes [some worse than others]dogs make a track colder than what it is or needs to be!!!I've seen dogs with equally as cold of nose[in my pack]one will stand there and give lots of tail,the other bearly wiggles opens and gets out of Dodge[starts moving that track with his head up,just bobbing here and there opening as he gets a good wiff.While one of the others is trying to cast out ahead,another still having to smell every bush etc.etc.I've also seen the roles reversed in about every different order imaginable,but none of them are above getting my boot in their butt for not getting to that dog that is able to carry that track the fastest.And still many times I know good and well them sorry potlickers could do better,because I have hunted with other dogs and hunters who would have made this look easier and did a better job with the task at hand.Good evening to all,I enjoy this more than TV in the evening time.

[LarryBeggs]

I agree alot of the races Im talking about there are dogs out there that could have put those cats up quicker. Im not talking about dogs just walking along boo hooing behind a track they should be running.Im talking about dogs running there butt off covering alot of ground to keep those tracks going.Because I dont believe in the scent holding thing I have to believe that because that cat is just walking and tiptoeing around there just isnt much scent there. Sometimes even in thick brush in good tracking conditions. Thus you get guys with good cat dogs seeing cats in the road dumping the dogs out and the dogs acting like they cant smell the cat. Not because the cat is holding its scent but because on that day that cat wasnt putting off much scent. Closing the gap like you said and getting the cat up and running = more scent and usualy a caught cat.The dog Im talking about keeping the cat track going for twelve hours has been dead for about 30 years. She was a one dog cat catching machine and if she wasnt able to push a track when she could she wouldnt have caught so many cats without help.A lot of different styles of dogs can tree cats. Some can get them up the tree a lot quicker .But different styles of dogs shine in different types of races. I know she would have gotten thrown out of some races running against some of these running dog bred dogs guys are hunting today . But I also believe on some tracks these style of dogs would have been standing in the road wonding what the heck she was running when she went trailing off over the hill.

[George Streepy]

A few years ago the dogs were trailing there way up a ridge and a buddy and I went around to the other side. I knew by the way they were barking it would take them a while to get to the other side but I decided to drive over there anyway. We went out to a landing and started glassing to pass the time and hoped the dogs would make their way towards us. I glassed up a drainage and spotted a bobcat standing on a log. It was a couple hundred yards above us and worked its way down a drainage. When it passed us it was only about 50 yards away. As it passed us I could hear the dogs crest the ridge and start working their way our direction. Typically I would start screaming and get the dogs down to us but I just stood their quietly to see how things would play out. The cat didn't ever let on it knew we were there, and just slowly worked its way passed us to the road below. In total it had to have been over 1000 yards from where I first spotted the cat to where it disappeared over the bottom road. When the dogs came out of the reprod into the clearcut they had to have been atleast 30 minutes behind the cat. They were barking better now and came through that clearcut running. What took the cat a half hour they covered in less than 5 minutes. By the time they crossed the bottom road they were barking so good that I would have said they were jumped, but I knew better. A few minutes later the roar was in full effect and the cat was twisting and turning. It took them about 20 minutes and it was caught in a culvert. So I don't buy that dogs can only trail as fast as the game was moving.

I did learn a lot about how my dogs were moving a track. GPS has changed how I view my dogs but nothing is as beneficial as watching them like that. The track straddlers carried the other dogs over the ridge and even helped progress the track through the clearcut. I do not prefer one track style over the other, but prefer to have dogs with both styles on the same race. With enough practice those dogs know who has the track and when it is time to hurry up and get there. If a dog wants to stand on its head while the others move out, the dog needs to go. If a dog wants to run around like an idiot while the others move the track, it needs to go too.

[al baldwin]

Better dogs something I could sure use. As stated earlier I sure don/t know for sure why some cats are hard for dogs to trail but sounds like everyone has experienced some of it, and lots of different opinions. Plus who can argue with the Lee Brothers. Al

[catdog360]

Interesting views fellas. Nice to see everyone getting along, so I will try to not stir the pot. But if you haven't read Dale Lee's book read it. I personally think the guy was an idiot. The real hero in my eyes is my dad first and Ben Lilly second.

[Tim Pittman]

GEORGE STREEPY----X2


CATDOGS 360---I don't agree with all the theories that Dale had,I've fed meat[of an animal caught to the dogs]and had them start trailing another on the way back to the truck.


the comment on different stlyes of dogs to make a pack and honoring each other,how true of a statement!!!

[dwalton]

What ever happens out there when we hunt with our dogs is just our interpretation on how we see it. That interpretation may be right or wrong what makes it so is agreement. Which may also be right or wrong. Who's to say which is really the truth. Dewey

[twist]

Some very good reading on this post. So here is my thoughts there are good strains in every breed some dogs and thier strains are not ment for some people as not everyone hunts the same or expects the same things from their dogs so you have to hunt the dog and strain that best fits your needs. If they make you happy that is all that matters but remember this thier are NONE THAT CATCH EVERY TIME!

[LarryBeggs]

I dont believe that most cat races go this way where the cat is sneaking along and the dogs are only going as fast as the cat.Only some races and usualy only for a portion of the race. Anybody that has ever treed a cat knows better. But it does happen even with good dogs in good conditions. My son took a couple of dogs out this winter with one of his friends . They started a hot cat track and the dogs sceamed on it for about 15 min. then a big loose.His friends garmin was showing treed on a couple of dogs but the dogs didnt sound treed they just acted like a big loose.They decided to go in to the dogs and sure enough just a big loose. They left the dogs there to work it out. While climbing out of the canyon they heard the brush rattling and there goes the cat just sneaking thru the brush. Ten minutes later one dog came up the hill just barely trailing the cat. Five minites after that one old dog of his friends who has treed a pile of cats in her life and two 1.5 year old dogs out of the first dog came up the hill on the track and just stopped when they reached the hunters just acted like they couldnt smell it anymore. Three or four other dogs a couple of wich he paid good money for and has caght cat with were still down where they made the loose. Some of these dogs pulled to the dog that was still on the cat but they were never able to get the cat up and running again and tree him. All but one of these dogs were well bred heavy to the running dog type dogs. Next weekend his friend took the same bunch of dogs to the same spot in simmilar conditions and treed what was probably the same cat. Some things are just hard to explain. If the dogs were all perfect and treed every cat they got on it wouldnt be a challenge and it also wouldnt be as much fun.

[Warner5]

Thank you all for the response’s, would have joined back in sooner but I found myself taking my own advice . Twist, much respect goes out to you fella's up north. I know when temps start to dip below freezing and the wind hits my hunting area, tracks get very difficult to get off the road. In the next few years I would like to make a trip up north with my dogs. Not to try and show anyone up or prove anything, just to put a face with the name and enjoy cat hunting. Larry, I like reading what you have to say on this site. I hear your family is rich with hound heritage, it's nice to see that continue. Tim, I have heard you have an eye for talent and patience when watching and working a young hound, would enjoy riding along some time if you have room for me and a pup. Al, as I said before responding to one of your posts. I'm starting to see the benefits to a good tight track stradler. Your advice to me over the years has always received much thought from me. Most of it has influenced my pack in a positive way, more than you know. As to luck. My Grandpa always told me. By putting in your time, a man can make his own luck. He also told me to be humble. That when a hunter has the right hounds, and has put his time in. “ The dogs will speak for themselves”. My grandpa. Jack Warner, 93, is a man of very, very few words when he talks I listen. But, I am also very lucky or a better word could be fortunate. I was raised up at a place where it was possible for me to follow around a dog at a very young age without close supervision. My baby sitter was a half hound Airedale cross named- Tag. Named that way because him or I was always following the other around. No critter was safe when we were off exploring. My family owns and maintains a 1000+ acre sheep/ cattle ranch at the end of a dead end road, surrounded by 10,000+ acres of gated timber company land. We are not rich but wealthy with land and I am a very fortunate individual when it comes to enjoying hounds. Being humble is how I get by. Being so fortunate I could be considered an arrogant little prick in no time. So you see I am lucky. My hat is off to hounds men that have a productive program and run productive packs, especially the ones that are not as fortunate as I am. Your dedication and hard work is known and respected, you are all more resilient than I am. Like I said my hats off to you. Well back to the subject, another thing a hunter can do to have better hounds is being honest with himself. Knowing when he is or isn’t going in the right direction with certain dogs is very important. Setting goals for dogs is important, when dogs don’t reach those goals then tough decisions need to be made. Being honest with your self is the 1st step. Cats that leave little scent is a head scratchier for sure. I have 1 theory that has not been mentioned yet. Cats are know for a trait that’s unique to their species, their cleanliness. I have sat and watched our house cat clean himself for an hour. He will kill a field mouse, eat it, take a dump, cover it up. Then clean himself all up before he takes a cat nap. Now, if my house cat just happened to be a Bob and I just happened to be hunting along with my hounds and started this cat off of his last scratch , I would guess his scent would be less than normal. That is until my hounds “ worked him up a bit”. Making the cat put off more scent, giving my hounds a better shot at treeing him. This is just a thought and does not explain how some cats that are already “worked up” have the ability to just seem to disappear leaving no scent? My old Talker dog is 14+ years old and has been a productive cat dog since he was 2.5. We have seen this happen 4 to 6 times together over the years. It has happened on gravel and paved roads. I have to assume it has also happened away from me on track leaving the dogs to sort it out on their own. My old dogs reaction goes as follows. Cat crosses the road ahead of dogs which are usually close behind, jumped or dam near jumped. Dogs hit the edge of road and fan out like on a lose. Most dogs start to head back the way they came, like the cat doubled back but they know it didn’t leaving them to think the track ended then weak locate barks come from a few of them. If I got to close with the truck a few dogs might even load up looking at me like I am testing or playing a prank on them. But during all this the old dog has been at work, working the ditch line on both sides of the road. I have seen him work like this for 25 minutes or so, with big circles all over the area in most case’s he will find the cat, any where from 40 to 100+ yards off the road. Once he opens it sounds more like a cold track that warms up very quick, then the race is back on. Back when I was just a coon hunter Lloyd Bessie would tell stories about cats shutting their scent off. Being a kid I believed him, but as I got older I doubted a cat could turn its scent off. But there is something to it - right or wrong - it is a good question - what really happens? I would sure like to hear Mr. Finney Clay’s thoughts on the matter. Thank you for reading. Sorry so windy. John Warner.

[slowandeasy]

guys, animals can't just decide to hold their sent back. it happens when they have the day light scared out of them. like when you come around a corner and almost run them over with the truck. and for what ever reason their sent only is lost for fifty to a hundred yards. this is why if you turn out in these situations the hounds sometimes take the wrong end, and you try to get them turned around and they can't seem to pick it up right off the road. but when you head them aways the way the critter was headed they are off and running. there are other ways that they are able to be scared enough to do this but this seemed to be one that alot could relate to. take care

[catdogs]

Scent and roads: good question. I am by no means a bobcat hunter, but I have seen countless lions and bobcats walk (or run) onto a road, or more commonly here, a snow mobile trail, walk it for a ways then continue on there way. Not just my hounds, but others to, will come screaming up to a snow mobile trail, then everything slows way down, they will play hell moving that track along snow mobile tracks, once the cat leaves the sled tracks, they are off and running again. I always figured snow mobile exhaust will kill or overwhelm cat scent. Same with roads and vehicles. I can smell snow mobile exhaust on my clothes days after I have ridden one. Anyway, thats my theory..... I really do not believe animals can hold their scent back. Good reading here.

[twist]

catdog, the reason the dogs cant move a track so well or more or less lose it on a snow packed tire track, snowmobile track or any hard packed snow surface is that there is little to know scent left when a cats foot touches a hard packed snow surface. Some dogs do learn to run the packed tire track or sled track as they have figured this scenario out and find where the cat track leaves the packed snow but some seasoned cats will run the packed track for great distances and give them a few minutes or even more, head start on the hound, just another one of thier tricks they have learned to out manuver the hounds. Andy

[JakeG]

I'd say that Larry was spot on. I've seen cats takin their sweet time and the dogs be not far behind. But they got to where I saw the cat tiptoeing around and they started having difficulty. I think some cats just aren't as clean as some. I think when a clean cat gets far enough ahead where he has time to do tricky things and be more careful as to where he places his foot and isn't rubbing all the brush those cats are hard to catch. I also think if a cat is ran a lot and never caught or is caught and never killed. I think these cats r more relaxed. They know how to think under pressure. They don't get to worked up and make mistakes in a race. I have a cat I can get on pretty regular that I can usually get a six or seven hour race out of. That's pretty unusual but I know this cats been ran a lot and I've caught him a few times and never kill him. He runs in some pretty bad stuff. He's got rocks blow downs thinning reprod patches. What I'm tryin to say is they get used to the same old game. They can keep their cool if they're used to bein harassed. U get after a big stinky Tom who's been alley cattin around and those dogs r going to be able to drift that track and smoke him. Just my thoughts