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Nolte: Thanks for the reply. Let me tell of a few things that I expect from a top cat dog. These are things that I have seen done by a top dog. She never took a back track more than 50 yards before turning around sometimes coming back threw the pack that I turned in. I have seen her trail a cold track in the snow at a run down a road and slide sideways to make the turn when the cat left the road. I have seen her tree many cats that hit and ran the road to throw the dogs off in a tree that was on the road shoulder she would gain on a cat when it tried to out run down a road. I watched the dogs come around below a bluff the cat went up a leaning tree and jumped out to the top of a 50 foot bluff. She hit the tree and treed once looking up, there were limbs so she could not tell if the cat was there or not. Them she ran back a 100 yards until she could get on top and checked to see if the cat had jumped to the bluff which it had. In less than 5 minutes from the time she treed once she was on top running the cat again while the rest of the dogs were treed at the base of the tree the cat used to get on top of the bluff. I started a cold cat at 7:00 am one morning they treed at 10:00 pm that night trailing the cat across a major river and several roads that day. I seen her trail and tree a cat when I shot it out she would check to see if it was dead them leave at a run in a few minutes you would hear her open on a cat that she cross or was traveling with the one I treed and tree it. I sent her down a track that was 4 hours old that others did not locate the cat, she went down and located and treed where the others had not. I had her tree on a cold track that no one else did going in to see what she was doing finding a lay cat that had been there for hours. I have seen her tree, kill the cat she would make sure it was dead then go back and tree again looking up and see a second cat in the tree. I could go on but I think you see the point. Dogs like that are once in a life time gifts. It did not take the fun out of cat hunting it showed me what was possible. I hunt what I have I breed for that. That was a bobcat dog. She taught me bobcat hunting. Now there were some bumps along the way mainly she liked coyotes and caught several on the ground before I convinced her that that was not what I wanted. That was my problem not hers. She did what she did and I had to let her know what I wanted. That is the biggest problem I see in training is letting the dog know what I want. Dewey

Dwalton, just curious what breed was she this top bobcat hound you speak about, any one else care to tell what breed the best ones were!!!

Great cat dogs are born not made! Now yes some dogs are made into dogs that catch cats but the ones that just know when to do certain things to cut the race down and put and end to it are just plain special they werent taught what they do they just do it! They can almost make catching a bobcat look easy more times than not in the right conditions. jmo Andy

She was a register Treeing Walker. Close to Finley River Chief. She was close enough to the early Walkers to have a lot of the running dog traits. A great locating tree dog but some of her pups would not locate on bobcats. Dewey

Dewey
If I may ask, how long ago did u have this dog and how old was the dog? How long did the dog live?
Just curious.....

The dog was born in 1978 she was killed by a train in 1986. She went back to Rouge River Chief which was a son of Finley River Chief. The mother was also a Finley River Dog. She was 45 pounds a full saddle back dog. There is still line bred dogs out of that line around. My pepper dog goes to her on three sides. A lot of the cat dogs of Walker breeding around here has some of her blood. I wish I had a dozen of her today. Dewey

Great thread fellows!

Have been reading but too pooped to write...I have the next 24 hrs off so will put my 2 cents worth in later.

Well Folks, another great thought provoking Thread! Thanks John for starting it.

The original question was: “My question is how do they do it? I know the word fast comes to mind, but a dog like this never seems to be running as hard or fast as other dogs. Pressure also comes to mind but a lot of dogs can pressure a cat only to watch the cat get away. A dogs timing is the biggest factor for me when choosing a cat dog, but it also needs some thing else to be a great one.”

Mr. Robbie nailed it right out of the Starting Gate as far as we are concerned;
”You ask, What makes a nautral cat dog. Breeding, training, environment?
Yes, I think breeding has a lot to do with it. Training has whole lot to do with it, Environment, just as long as you have cats to run in that environment. But I think the one special thing that sets aside that special or "natural" cat dog is his ability to think.”

Ahh….that unnatural ability to “Think or Reason” that is what separates a Special Hound from a Solid Hound in Dad’s program! Over the 50+ years that he has been Hunting and Breeding Bobcat specific Hounds he as had hundreds of darn nice Hounds…yet only a handful of Special Hounds…..right now we do not have one…Corkey is close but not quite.

A trait that these Special Hounds all exhibited was after the strike, if the Track was old or Bad, these Special Hounds would STAND and POSE, slightly turning their heads, thinking about where the Cat had gone (actually they were probably testing where the wind was coming from, knowing from experience that a Cat will try to travel into the wind) then leaving out and more often than not barking way off with the Cat. Now with the Garmin’s we are able to watch this, not just theorize what is happening.

How do these Special Hounds come about? Well it is Genetics! There are two ways that this can happen:

1. Breeding the Best to the Best with NO care as to the relationships of the mating pair. In this case the Proper alignment of the Genes to cause this Intelligence is Luck and Happenstance. You may never see this Special Hound appear from this, when it happens Dad refers to it as a FREAK as this Hound will very seldom reproduce as good as he/she it is…..there is just too much Genetic diversity!

2. Linebreeding, now when you concentrate the Gene pool for the desired Traits and BRAINS is number ONE you increase the chances of this happening. As we have stated many times, over 98.5 % of the Pups Dad has had in the last 12 generations have made useable Hounds. SPECIAL Hounds come along about every 6 to 8 years, one time he had two at once…littermates….Dad says that Ed and Beaver almost took the fun out of a Cat Race…they were just so EFFICIENT.

Now after that SPECIAL Prospect is born then the TRAINING and ENVIORONMENT part come into play. If given plenty of exposure and lots of Cat to run these Pups will excel and develop quicker than their littermates who have the potential of making SOLID Hounds.

Most Hunters are blessed to have one SPECIAL Hound in their Lifetime….heck most Hunters are blessed if they have ONE Solid Hound at anyone time.

Mr. Dewey and I may ruffle lots of feathers but we are not Bragging about our Hounds or Denigrating others Hounds when we say MOST Hunters have never seen a SPECIAL Hound to judge other Hounds by…when you do the “YARDSTICK” makes it mighty tough for others to measure up. GOOD Hounds will catch you lots of Cat….but those SPECIAL Hounds will put your averages up there with Dad’s, Mr. Dewey’s, and Glen Rybards (Glen’s Hounds in 2011 only failed to Catch or Tree 2 out of 120 Cat Jumped…yes he has 6 Running Walkers who can Tree in Big Timber and not miss the Cat).

I talk about Style…Swinging (John I think this is what you referred to as FLANKING) vs Track straddling….well the SPECIAL Hounds, it seems they have the knack of adjusting their Style to the Time and Style of the particular Race taking place. To us this is that BRAIN thing again.

Mr. Mike Martell, your Posts are always very Good and to the point. I too applaud all the Good works you do for Houndsmen in the Northwest! In your area the small Packs work quite well. You all are able to use the 1 Hound to Catch a Cat, and thusly can TRAIN 1 Hound at a time. But areas are darn sure different….in the Southeast there is a Culture of larger Packs….some of this is for the Music….but in reality more Hounds are needed to successfully end a Track. Several reasons for this are:

Big, Thick, Bad country for the Cat to run in. I know that you all in the NW have the Big, and you all have Rocky Bluffs and hillsides….but what you do not have is miles and miles of JUNGLE from the ground to shoulder high…most of it has Thorns. Then Water, Creeks that you all would call Rivers, drainage ditches, Cypress Ponds, and Beaver Ponds….all Tools a Cat will use to hinder the Hounds. David who we all respect on here on BGH for his knowledge and candor was here with us in Florida last February, he was amazed that Hounds could even run in stuff this bad. Therefore it takes more Hounds for one to be in the right place to smell the Cat.

Next is our VOLITILE Scenting conditions. It takes more Hounds to advance a Track through the Bad coverts when they can only get sniffs of Scent in places….and they had better be Solid or better Hounds to do this otherwise you are wasting Gas and Sleep.

Trying to start a Hound by itself would not be very fruitful or possible even if you saw the Cat in the Road…The Pup would have a hard time knowing what was wanted and sure would get frustrated by not being successful, then bad things will start to happen…off Game will smell better and the Pup will be running it….if it is shocked for this and not able to run or even advance the Cat Track soon all the HUNT bred into it will be Gone!

Folks all of the above is what we see and have had happen where we Hunt, offending anyone was the last thing on my mind…but having a SPECIAL Hound just once in your lifetime is an admirable goal to have. If you hear of one in your region, invest the time and money to go spend a couple of days with its owner and watch this SPECIAL Hound work….the knowledge and experience gained will be PRICELESS!

2. Linebreeding, now when you concentrate the Gene pool for the desired Traits and BRAINS is number ONE you increase the chances of this happening. As we have stated many times, over 98.5 % of the Pups Dad has had in the last 12 generations have made useable Hounds. SPECIAL Hounds come along about every 6 to 8 years, one time he had two at once…littermates….Dad says that Ed and Beaver almost took the fun out of a Cat Race…they were just so EFFICIENT.


cj, hi how ya doin? could you try and make clear how long it took, and the amount of culling that took place to get to the above point. and that useable probably means average or below average. and possibly even hounds that your dad, yourself, and probably me might not keep. or you will have alot thinking that there is nothing to this stuff. i'm right on course with the special ones every 6 to 8 years. but please tell them how long it took or alot will believe all ya have to do is start having pups and they will all turn out. take care! Willy

Willy, I will try to answer your questions.

How long it took Dad to get to where he wanted to be….well 1st he had to learn to walk as a Cat Hunter. This took 5 years or so. Then he took another 5 years buying Hounds and not ever being satisfied with the manner in which he was catching Cats…. He was catching plenty and in several States and Old Mexico….just not as efficiently as he would have liked and he was continually going through Hounds.

Then Coyotes appeared in our part of the world, the Grey Fox began to disappear, consequently so did the Grey Fox Hounds.

This is when he decided that he would have to raise his own Style of Bobcat Specific Hound. He did not try to REINVENT the wheel. Mr. Hinkle Schilling in East Texas had developed a Line of Hounds that exhibited the SKILLS & STYLE that Dad found were efficient in catching a Cat. Mr. Hinkle bred Ch. Mark S. by LINE breeding back to a Hound of the early 20th Century named Hub Dawson. This Hound appears many times in Mark S.’s 7 generation pedigree.

Because of how TIGHTLY he was bred Mark S. was a PREPOTENT Sire, passing on his BRAINS, Nose, Heart, and Mouth with regularity!

Dad bought a Son of Mark S. who had Mark as a Grandfather on the other side. He bred this Hound to a bitch who had Mark S. as both Grandfathers and 1 Great Grandfather. This mating produced 7 Pups (2males and 5 females). The 2 males died in their 2nd year but were making SOLID Hounds. 3 of the females were SOLID, 1 was DECENT, and 1 was SPECIAL, her name was Rose. All of today’s Hounds trace back to her.

No culls appeared in the next two generations. Then Dad Bred to a Hound from VA who was heavy Mark S. on top and line bred Pine Ridge on the bottom. This was a hell of a Hound with many outstanding Pogeny, however spreading of the Gene Pool produced some Pups who may not have been culls, but lacked the talent and skill sets that Dad demands; most of these worked for other Hunters.

Over the years, where the wrecks have happened, have been with the few OUTCROSSES that Dad has made. Even if the Outcross individual had Mark S. in its pedigree, if there was no continuity or homogeneity in the rest of the pedigree culls appeared. The corresponding increase in the Gene combinations decreased the chances of the desired Traits and Skills appearing. Staying CLOSE to home, so to speak, has prevented this.

Lots of CULLING was done before Dad. Then he did his research on the Siblings in the Hounds he evaluated before selecting Raider Rivers and Cry Baby to start his Clay Hounds. Since then he has been BRUTALY Honest in his evaluations both in his Hounds and the people who Hunt them. Ruthlessly Culling both if they do not perform.

Below is a part of the Evaluation form we keep on the Hounds, you can see how we classify them. I used the term Usable in the above Post in place of Serviceable. While Dad’s measuring stick is quite high, a Serviceable Hound might not be able to stay in Dad’s, Glen’s, or Mr. Harold Parker’s Packs past two years of age, however these Hounds are the top end of other members of Dad’s circle’s Packs.

Rating: (if the Hound is under one year please circle the one you feel will fit this Hound @ 3 years of age)

CULL - has no redeeming qualities

FILL IN - sometimes does one or two things well, does not hurt the Pack or a Race; more often a Participant than a Contributor.

SERVICEABLE - this Hound does more to help, is a Contributor much more often than the FILL IN Hound.

DECENT - a roll player who does ONE thing very well, a Contributor in all other respects

SOLID - a Hound who performs all task well, contributes in all aspects

SPECIAL - This Hound excels in several aspects of the Sport, and is above average in the others!

C.J., thank you, Willy and Waylon could not have put it in a song any better! that was the point i was trying to make. your dad and you did not mix up some potters clay and presto everything magically fell into place. and i am sure Mr. Finney had plenty between his ears. when he went to Mr. Shilling to pick out something to add to what he already had. ( i am also positive Mr. Shilling had put in alot of time to get what he had also). point being no one pulls good hounds out of a hat. and although some may buy their way into the game. if they are not real (dog men), they better have super deep pockets. because staying in the game takes more than just money. and a real dog man can see their soul. take care and maybe we'll get to drop the tail gate one day! willy

Rob
I was one of the 16 men leaning against J. Martin's pickup when Matt came flying by. I always thought that a dog's knowledge of the country was very important and he might have recalled something from a previous hunt that made him make the drastic move. At any rate, Matt was sure right and if my memory serves me correct, that was the second cat we caught that evening. Richard and I were "Potlickers" and went to bed and you and the rest of the boys ended up catching two more before the night was over.
Adios,
Gary

Gary,
I forgot about you being there that night. I believe a dog's knowledge of the country can help, especially with a dog like Scogo, a cheating dog that will do anything to get to the front of the pack by running the roads. But to me, what Matt did was a total different thing. I really believe as Matt was in there backwards on that track, it finally dawned on him that the track was backwards and he was going back to the other end of it. Knowing the country didn't help him make that decision. I trained him from a pup and that wasn't the first time Matt used his head, he sure would "think" when he needed to. Also got to see him work this year in February. The fella that bought him from me brought him down and we made a few hunts and I got to see his thinking skills again. Wish I still owned him.

Your memory served you right. We did go on to catch two more that night. I wouldn't have given a plugged nickel to have caught a cat that night. Windy, dry, and bare ground. I'd been hunting pretty hard for a month and a half and couldn't hardly trail on a cat and it was the same way after that hunt. Just tough conditions. But that night the dogs just didn't seem like they could do anything wrong. We'll never know what all it takes to make good trailing conditions, but what ever they are, they were lined up in order that night.

Yea, you and big brother thought our luck had run out and went on back to camp. To be honest I thought it had run out too. You never know. Say howdy to all. Robbie