The ultimate bobcat dog...

[chilcotin hillbilly]

The search for the ultimate bobcat dog?
the answer is why?
Should the ultimate dog catch, bear, lion and bobcat, maybe throw in a coon as well. Alot of people don't think that is possible, I beg to differ, getting the hounds in the woods 150-200 days ayear and catching a pile of game can turn an average prospect into a winner.
Here in BC where I make aliving running lynx. lions and bear for 9 months a year I expect every dog to catch the cats and stay with a mean bear. I have found this a real challenge compared to just running the small cats.

I really believe you can have switch hitting hounds with good catch ratio in every species.
You may need a cat strike dog, or a bear strike dog to check what you are running.
Great insite to prospective breedings and crosses. .

[LarryBeggs]

Chilcotin hillbilly, I completely agree. I certainly don't have dogs like that but I have seen and hunted with them. Like you said its about how hard there hunted. Like I heard an old cat hunter say on here "sometimes you just don't know what you don't know because you haven`t seen it "or something like that. One thing I haven`t heard much said about in breeding the ultimate bobcat dog. Is that it is not just about breeding the right breed or bloodline to the right breed or bloodline. It is about breeding the right dog out of that particular bloodline or breed to the right dog out of that particular breed or bloodline. I think experimenting with different breeds is great. But I don't think we will wind up with anything any better than what we have unless we hunt them like Chilcotin hillbilly said. Then pick the best out of that breed to breed to the best out of what ever breed. My son just bred his walker female. I wanted him to breed it to a red dog. But I didn't just breed to a red dog out of good blood lines. I talked him into breeding it to a red dog. From a guy I don't really know. But I know hunts hard and catches a lot of cat. And from reading his post on here thinks about dogs most closely to the way I think. I left the guy a message. He called me back. And was gracious enough to let us breed to his dog. None of this "you haven`t earned the right to hunt my bloodline " " or I don't want my bloodlines getting out" crap that goes on with some of these top bobcat hunters. Just humility , and keep me informed how they are doing. Take care, Larry

[Dan McDonough]

Merlo_105, definitely something to think about later. The thing is...the English pointer can not do some of the things that a lurcher can do. Here's an example:

This example is actually with a longdog. For those who don't know, a longdog is a cross between two sighthound breeds as opposed to a sighthound to a boarder collie. Anyhow, I had my stag female over to a guys place to breed to his boarder collie. She's a doll until another dog wants to put a foot on her back, then she'll make them pay! I knew this ahead of time so I had a muzzle on her from the get-go. She would catch him and flip him and pound him a few times with her muzzled mouth. It got to the point that if the dog was standing 30 yards away and he looked like he was going to come in for another try, she would go catch him and flip him and pound him again with her muzzled mouth. He didn't like it but wasn't hurt and he was more interested in getting a piece of her other end so he didn't leave. The point is, we have an in shape, working boarder collie that can't excape a stag if he wanted to. It was such a display of physical ability that it was all I could think about for the next week. By the way, as soon as he saw her coming, he didn't get another 10 yards before she had him flipped. I don't know of another kind of dog that can do that.

One other point on the sighthound end of things. Whippets and deerhounds are a fair bit smarter than the rest of the dummies with the whippets well in the lead. That being said, the sighthounds in general represent the lowest level of intelligence in the dog world...but not when you cross them with a b.c. They need that collie blood to make it for this project.

As for the next step, that's part of why I'm here a good two years in advance of that part of the project.

There's no need to worry about nose as I have that covered and am not worried about that at all. The stag I'm using for the lurcher cross has a nose on her (not typical) and the boarder collies have plenty of nose and can be trained to use it to a high degree. The early crosses won't likely be the kind of dogs you'll be pulling out of the box when you come up on a 36 hour old tack but they should be able to handle a bit warmer track but all they will have to do for their first year is to follow the leopards in and try and beat them to the cat. If they can do that, I'll have a good beginning.

[Dan McDonough]

There are some good points and an obvious question that I had expected to see.

First, the obvious question. 1bludawg wrote, "Guys, why try to re-invent the wheel when there are already bloodlines and strains out there that can tree bobcats? Some produce individuals that can do it alone.

My answer is that I already have dogs that can tree a bobcat alone. I know of many others that can also do it. Here's my problem...I've seen things in the dog world that tell me it could be done better. It would take me week's or even years to put together all of the little things I've got logged into my memory the way I saw it. I'd have to come up with a coherent way of telling you how I look at the world of dogs and where my foundation came from. I'm not sure I could remember how it all came about but I'm sure many of you can relate or at least I hope so otherwise someone could make a good arguemement for why I should be commited to an asylum.

All joking aside, whippets in particular are so hyper agile that it's not much of a comparison with other breeds of dogs. I'm not talking about show whippets or the one you might have seen out pooping at the gas station on a trip somewhere, I'm talking about top of the line race dogs from the West. Names like Lyth, Vitesse, Kentfield or Quixand. As far a the best agility for hunting, the Lyth dogs are still the best of what I've seen. Besides, they are the fastest dog in the world in under 150 yards which doesn't hurt for getting stuff caught in short order...trust me! Here are the drawbacks: The whippets have terribly thin skin and usually can't take the day after day pounding in the woods. Their speed is a liability in the bush. They push so hard they can get ripped or stabbed or cut just by way of their power of movement. That is why many folks cross them with a good hard terrier for a lot of types of work.

Anyhow, I could go on and on but I just remembered that I would rather hear stories about something I don't already know about. Larry's quote is right on the money. If you don't know about lurchers I think it would be a great subject for any dog man. It is so different from the traditional American hunting types that it opens a whole new perspective on what you can do with a dog. I think some of the reasons why they have been overlooked for the most part is that they are closely tied with ferreting for rabbits and looked down upon in history because they were the dog of the gypsy and the poacher (often one in the same). They were considered the dogs of the lower class. The thing is, like the pit fighting dogs, they were developed to a very high level under one of the greatest influences in the dog breeding world...SURVIVAL! Also, most states in the US have game laws that make it illegal for a dog to actually catch, kill or molest a wild animal. Most folks ignore these laws but it remains in the mind of most who take the time to read the hunting regulations for their state. It's a sentiment that has carried over from the British motherland that spawned the USA.