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Good tip South Texas. I agree when you slam the brakes and run to the back of the truck and dump all the dogs, you have created a situation where everyone and everything is too excited. I have also had a problem with my dogs taking the back trail in this situation as they are so worked up, don't seem to pay as much attention to what direction the cat or critter went.
Adios,
Gary

All right, if a cat can have control over its scent when spooked or crossing a road, can it do the same thing when it climbs or squats? I have seen some nice dogs run all over a squatted cat several times before they step on it and make it move, have also seen dogs that have no trouble locating cats 80-150 ft up a tree struggle with one 15 ft up a tree at times. Sorry my mind wanders.

Mark most of those location problems, especially in low trees, have happened when the cat has circled on the same tracks numerous times in my observations& I assumed the cat jumped high on the tree. I had a 25lb. Tom tree about 15 feet off the ground in a myrtle bush that hung out over a creek, was a very wet morning after a heavy rain storm, I was within 75 feet of the cat when it went up.. The dogs were circling tight and just about to catch the cat, three seasoned hounds & a 6 moth old pup. I had not seen the cat & wondered could it be a grey fox. The pup was the first to locate the cat, skinner was there, so I assumed the pup was false treeing. The three old hounds were circling tight, however it was the pup had located the cat. In that case after some thought I assume that stinky, rutting tom was giving off so much scent it make locating tuffer than normal. I have no doubt the others would have located without the pup. The reason I was so close to those dogs , they were very near a farmers house & had gone thru his yard once. One of those homes built right in the middle of a very wooded area on a great cat playgrounds. However they had tracked that tom a long ways thru another ranch before jumping near that house. I told Zip about this and he guessed the pup seen the cat go up & that is a real possibility.I too have seen cats squat and have numerous dogs looking hard for what seem a long time, then all a sudden leave on a jump race, when I was sure the dogs had to be within a few feet of the squatted cat. Saw one squat on a rock once & observed the dogs work all around very near, the cat never moved until I walked over & forced it to move. Doing a bunch of hunting in summer evenings allowed me to observe a lot of things cat pull on the dogs. Especially hunting the same area most time and knowing where to wait to see the cat. Seems all I have now are stories. I was hunting in those summer evenings With in ten minutes from home. Not much competition from other hunters in that area, at that time, Key to the gate, so I conserved the cats and enjoyed. My how things change. Al

Mark
The only time I have witnessed this is when a cat is slipping around all in one small area as the dog's are trailing on this cat. Dog's are trailing like an old cold trail but cat its just right there and I don't mean under tuff trailing conditions.
I think the cat knows what he's doing & doing it under a calm manner even when he squats & dogs are passing within a few yards of him. He's hidding from the dogs. This is the ONLY time I have seen this. Now when spooked or scared or running for his life he's thinking about other things than slipping around and loses ability to contain his scent and race will be on.

As for as dogs not smelling one after seeing a cat cross the road and dumping dogs out on him. To me this is just more to dog's mind not being in the state at the time (not thinking cat or cat minded). I am not referring to a cat containing his scent at this time.

Sometimes dogs just make losses on a cat, this just happens when cat hunting. I'm sure not saying every time my dogs make a loss it is because the cat is containing his scent. I don't believe that. Sometimes scenting conditions just turn for the worse causing a loss. Sometimes a cat will step out in a road or dusty cow trail or game trail and walk down it causing a loss. But just because dog's make a lose doesn't mean the cat is containing his scent.

I said the other day on this topic that this is not something you see on every cat. I would guess a cat containing his scent is something I might see 1 in 30 cats.

As for trees? Don't know. Sure have had dogs not locate but not saying that is the reason why.

Again about the only time I have witnessed this is on a cat tip toeing & slipping around just right there in front of the dogs & doing this in a calm state of mind. I know I have seen this with a sow cat with kittens hid out close by.

I probably shouldn't have written this down because these are just my thoughts on the subject & no way to prove anything. Just what I believe.
Robbie

Me toooo!!!!


Take care, Willie

Robbie, i am in no way trying to discredit what you believe. I have been back and forth on the slippn cat thing with myself over the years. Its funny that you mention the fact that you only see it every so many cats. I had noticed that too, and that is one of the reasons that leads me to believe a cat has no control over it. I would think if they did you would see it on a regular basis if not with every cat that was able to get a lead on the dogs.
I have seen cats that were slipping along ahead of the dogs one minute and dead or forced up a tree the next. I truly believe that there are days or parts of days when a dog cant get its head up high enough to put adequate pressure on a cat to catch it.
I guess i lean more towards the conditions being the cause.

Mark, you sure might be right, I don't know. No way to prove it, one way or the other. Only thing that gets me, if it is conditions, how come the dog's can run him with ease once they get the cat jumped & running scared. I have also seen within a few hours time span at night,hitting one cat & trail, jump, & run with ease. Then hitting one of these slipping, tip toeing cats & total different deal.

You mentioned how come you don't see this more often if cats can do this. I would think a cat has to be a pretty cool headed customer to let a pack of dogs get as close to him as he does when slipping around or squatting without runn ing from the dogs. Most of them can't take this pressure without running.

Know of a few ol' timers who believed this, that were good hunters. But.... None of us can prove anything so I guess we can just all believe whatever we want to and nobody can prove us wrong. Lol
Robbie

Just a guess. But I would think of scent as being like dust. If your moving something dusty it doesn`t get disturbed not much falls off. If you move it fast or disturb it gets all over the place. Dont know but I bet if you could see scent it would look something like that.

I believe all these posts on this thread make some good points. This is my theory and is based on nothing more than a guess from hunting sorry dogs and making excuses for not catching.

I don’t believe cats can hold their scent. I do believe that a cat can control their reaction to a situation (like being chased by a pack of hounds). I believe some cats that live their life in heavy coyote populations and/or in an area that is heavily hunted lose some of their fear of a canine and just refuse to get overly excited when being harassed by them. I believe they would rather stand their ground than run away. Instead they just keep their distance by causally walking and keeping the dogs at a safe distance but ready to take them on if they pose a threat.

I also believe a lot of what Ted Smith posted.

tedsmith wrote:I believe pheromones and adrenaline are the major contributors on the cats part as to how much scent he or she puts out it can probably be withheld to an extent humidity and barometric pressure are also factors I think but who really knows for sure. Sorry dogs is what I atribute it to makes more sense and they don't dispute it.

I’ve noticed something happening to the scenting conditions too many times that’s changed the way the hounds can trail, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. Many times I have jumped game out to rerun it and never got a bark on the jump out, but this same piece of game was just treed without any problems. My beliefs learn toward a slight change in the barometer. A barometer can tell you the slightest changes in, barometric pressure and atmospheric pressure. I also believe that a change in humidity, temperature, and wind direction, changes the scenting conditions and causes hot tracks to blow up and allows the cat to always maintain a safe distance at walking speed even though the hounds may be barking close to his backside.

One thing we can all agree on is none of us knows the right answer and can only make guesses based on theories.

I guess, I should have just posted that I believe sometimes conditions can control a cats scent ( not the cat) and that's what makes them the Ghost Cat.

[quote="South Texan"]Mark


As for as dogs not smelling one after seeing a cat cross the road and dumping dogs out on him. To me this is just more to dog's mind not being in the state at the time (not thinking cat or cat minded). I am not referring to a cat containing his scent at this time.
My thoughts also on this one. Al

I've had this happen a few times and I've always let dogs out right away... And never caught it. With bobcats that is. I've turned out on bears and lions and caught every one. So, if the theory that a bobcat can hold its scent is true, then how can you come back to the track later on and catch it like some guys are able to do? If the cat wasn't leaving its scent when it crossed the road, then there wouldn't be any scent 15 minutes later either. So that theory doesn't hold water (or scent) in my book. There has to be another explanation where that scent is for those few minutes. The only logical explanation is that because of the atmospheric conditions at the time the cat crossed the road, (temperature, humidity, wind, etc) the scent rises a few feet (this comes back to that temperature thing, heat rises) then settles down to the ground a few
minutes later. And there you have your ghost cat. I think...

It is physically impossible for an animal to hold or turn off its scent. Animals produce "aroma" through several different mechanisms; scent glands, breath, sweat (cats do sweat), hair, and constantly shedding skin.

Even if a cat could turn off its scent glands, and maybe it is cool enough out that it is not sweating, it still has to breath, its hair still has an odor and it is still shedding scurf (dead skin cells).

A person sloughs off 40,000 bits of skin (called scurf or rafts) each minutes. Our skin serves as the residence for millions of bacteria (in the armpit, approximately 2.41 million per square centimeter) which tag along on scurf as it gently floats to the ground on our bodies and in the air. On the ground those bacteria produce their smell.

Also, like Dean said....that cat you couldnt start when it ran across the road but you can an hour later.....

I can only say for sure for the past nearly 50 years I have witnessed some cats that tiptoed in front of various packs of hounds that were very hard to trail. At times being only a few yards in front of those hounds & the difficulty those the hounds had trailing would lead one to believe the cat had a very big lead on those hounds. Have returned numerous times to trail the same cat with the same results. Not only I but other hound men with good hounds have experienced the same. Sure can/t blame those who doubt this, I too doubted it when told by my first mentor. Can still recall very well the first time I witnessed this, friend Robin Sell & I were hunting together, we both were amazed. The hounds , or I should say one hound did tree that cat after a struggle. Made believers out of Robin & I. There has to be something going on when those same packs did very well running other cats but failed so miserable at times on those tiptoers. Have written this before, but here it is again. Recall having 3 veterans & 2 youngsters trailing one such cat, as I watched the 3 veterans trail thru an open spot & enter the brush, thinking I bet that cat is very close to those dogs, the 2 youngsters arrived in the open area. That bobcat came out of the brush where the veterans had entered and tiptoed directly between the two youngsters, neither youngster saw that cat. My lead hound did come back out of brush, working like he had a very poor track, as I watched wishing I had a camcorder. Those hounds did eventually tree that cat that day, however I knew the same hounds had failed to tree him several previous times. I have nothing to sell or nothing to gain by fabricating such a story. Al

Al, I believe it. I have witnessed same thing. Hit the same tiptoeing cat on different days with the same results. You wouldn't think conditions would be bad ever time you started this tiptoeing cat. It is a mystery but been an interesting thread to read other's thoughts. Thanks for shareing.
Robbie

Probably if you searched the archives on this site. You will find a lot of the same information being discussed on this topic. But I will repeat myself at the risk of people thinking that I am turning into an antique and repeating myself.

I think not being able to trail certain times is very related to FEAR. Similar to when someone scares you so bad that every inch of your skin tightens up, and the hair on the back of your neck feels like static electricity. I think at that time the pores and sent glands are so tight they are not letting sent out. And the reason sometimes you can trail critters on these occasions. Is that they are still loaded with dander, and body sent. But if they have been grooming them self, or recently been soak and wet. And have dried off and are slick and have a nice shine to there coats. There just flat aint much body sent there. So the combination of the two I guess would lead some to think they were holding their sent back. But there is other things also that come into play. And I will say this for some to have a good laugh. But after thousands of critters being observed in front of hounds. Dad and I both agree the Hounds will generally be moving at what ever pace the critter is moving. Yes there are exceptions. But the overwhelming percentages will prove this to be true, regardless of the critter. Add this to all of the above posts, and the theory of holding sent and a sneaking tip toing critter I think can be a little easier to digest. Have a good laugh, but keep in mind THOUSANDS, not a couple dozen.


Take care, Willie