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Scrub, sounds like you may have a better picture of what I'm talking about. Bar Bar they were good fox dogs, just dogs that thought a cat smelled better. The man telling me his said they continued to run fox up until they started getting cat fur in their mouth and and the fox running became less and less. South tex, as far as the training back then( this took place in the50-60-70) all outside hunting when there was no deer . Coyote, very few coon. Only running game was fox or cat in this part of the country. So breaking off trash was unheard of. Maby a skunk. The only training was hauling them to the cast. If they didn't show the owner what he was looking for pretty quick he was culled. Fellows what I'm telling you here is what actually went on here in the southeast. If you haven't lived here and hunted through that period you just don't know what I'm talking about. That is why I like to talk to south east hunters.

Macedonia mule man, you have described how it was when I grew up!(I am 72 this year) My Dad's only sport was running coyotes with his running walker hounds. Never knew him to catch any, but his buddies would come to our place, build a fire, brew up a pot of coffee & listen a the race till up in the AM. Pretty dull to me as a kid, so I had to have hounds that would put game in a tree or catch such(coon, possum, bobcat, etc.).

Some of Dad's older running hounds would & did work, but not all that well. They would break away and cold trail a coyote or gray fox a number of times. They would tree a coon or bobcat on occassion.

Our sport of chasing/treeing bobcats with hounds has come along way since then. Many hunters, myself included, have made many attempts to develop hounds that will be primary bobact/lion hounds. From my stand point, it has really been a learning trip! Those younger houndsmen that are seeking through breeding to develop a "bobcat hound" have so many sources available that we did not have to study.
Many attempts I tried in crossing different breeds did not work. And ended up costing money and time with not the results that I wanted.

Another issue everyone must not overlook: What type of terrain, weather conditions, & job your wanting that "perfect cat hound" to accomplish?

Just some thoughts,

Clyde Lawson

Yesterday afternoon a neighbor called me to come and help preg check cows and being in the back by myself, I got to thinking about my previous post. I used the wrong words when describing what I was trying to say. I have spent many nights around the fire listening to a fox or coyote race when I lived down south, so I do have some idea about the culture.

The dogs the man was given because they ran bobcats may have been great foxhounds, but they were great foxhounds that ran off game, which is why they were culled or gotten rid of. In trying to understand why the recipient of these dogs couldn't realize much success, we need to look at this a little deeper. The hounds in question may have been great at running bobcat, but they were foxhounds that ended up running off game. When the man tried taking a couple of these dogs and making a cross, he wasn't breeding bobcat hounds, he was breeding foxhounds with a propensity for off game.

With any type of breeding, it is damn near impossible to breed true to a type when crossing two hounds that have been bred for generations to excel in other areas. We have all seen those great dogs that came out as freaks. They went against all of the careful breeding that has gone into making them, and they ended up doing great at something they were never intended for. That is basically what the case would have been if the man who had been given the dogs had found rousing success with his crosses.

Had he been willing to devote alot of time and go through with some extreme culling, he most likely could have been successful at isolating and concentrating the genetic traits that led to these dogs becoming good bobcat hounds. Without that time and effort though, he was merely breeding foxhounds. I have talked to alot of men whom I considered to be excellent hound breeders over the years. To a man, everyone of them told me they had to cull extremely hard when starting out, because they were in search of certain genetics and they had to eliminate the undesirable traits. As time and breedings progressed though, with careful attention being paid, they found themselves having to cull less and less. I know quite a few of those guys who rarely have a cull now.


Tex

Mule man, I think I know exactly what you are talking about.
As far as breeding southern fox dogs not to run off game, I think is a relatively new concept just for the reasons you stated. Up until the the mid 80s there were few deer and no coyotes, just a lot of grey fox and cats. Fox hunters hunted where the fox were and the deer weren't and cats were few. Now there is a deer in every brier patch. Most packs of fox dogs I have ever known or owned would try to run a cat but are not going to catch a cat, they will follow it around and get under it every now and then but most of the time the cat is going to be getting further ahead the longer it last. Now put any one of those good grey fox dogs in a pack of cat dogs and let them experience catching a few and it's not long and a lot of them will learn how to run one and have seen a few if you keep feeding them cats will quit running fox altogether.

Scrub, I've always felt that the packs of fox dogs I been around have done well on a JUMPED cat race, they run the same tricks as most greys I've run, on similar but normally smaller territory (once race is started), with less lung capacity and stamina. I've always felt to catch a grey fox on top the ground in my neck of the southeast is harder than catching a cat. I'd be willing to say boys who run both, and do well with the greys make shorter work with the cats. Talked to a man one time in Ga about that bourbon liquor breeding, we were discussing Jr Aspinwall, his words were something like
'Jr breeds a little different than us, we don't have a lot of greys so don't wanna catch them like the cats, he wants his dogs to catch the grey foxes too not just the cats'
that statement always seemed funny to me as I always felt and even used to discuss with Mr Finney Clay that I thought grey fox were a tougher opponent in these thick foothills of Va than the cats (we agreed to disagree as in sure most cat hunters would) im sure these liquor dogs got the job done and I've owned some with that type of breeding and liked them a lot, and sure you know about that liquor breeding Scrubb.
When you hunt sorry dogs like me all get away!
Perk

Perk, catching a night time grey fox on top in central Florida scrub is rare, a lot rarer than some here would admit. The last 2 I was present at 1 was caught in the road and the other, another hunter cast his fresh pack into the race right at daylight after we had been running the fox for several hours. He claimed he didn't hear our race when he turned out, it wasn't pretty there that morning.The fox hunting area we had in the 70s thru the middle 90s fox were plentiful but cats were rare or nonexistent. Most our dogs back then may live their life out and never smell a cat that we knew of. On the rare occasion we found a cat track or even see one, maybe once a year, the cat always made our dogs look real sorry. But the guys around here that had a place that they could cat hunt caught cats on top with hounds of the same breeding as ours. So if you have dogs with experience running cats I agree with you, you'll catch more of the cats you run than you will fox.

Bar bar, I know nothing about dog breeding. Since I started trying to run cat about 8 yrs ago I have hunted with some people that have a reputation for cat bred dogs. I can honestly say these dogs performed no different in a cat race than an ordinary pack of deer dogs that were on a cat. The only cat I ever saw caught, was caught by a pack of 5 deer dogs. I didn't see the catch but drove up as they were loading the dogs.the most confusing thing to me is what I am told about certain breeds and when I go all perform the same was as an ordinary outside fox or deer dog. The only difference I saw was obedience, all cat hunter dogs handle good.

I don't mean to butt in guys but this applies to running dogs as well
as tree dogs . A lot of mediocre and even some pretty sorry dogs will look good when hunted with good dogs.

1bludawg, as the old saying goes--"your preaching to the choir" there!

And again speaking only for myself, a number of houndsmen get "kennel blind'. Myself included!

With the Garmin 70 & alpha 100, I do not care the breeding of the hound, (and system doesn't either) you can see what hounds area performing as they should, those that make the pick-ups, those that get the strikes, the tree locators, & the "me-too hounds".

When the race is going, & I mean up and running, the entire pack should be in one spot and you can cover that spot with a dime or less! Zoom in all you can and the entire pack should be on top of each other. I track all of the hounds out and when a loss is made, then in 5 minutes the area looks like a plate of noodles of all different colors. Sometimes those tracks will make circles of 250yds up to 600 yds, but they all will come back to where track was originally lost. Then, that track will start casting in opposite direction working out.

When one of the older hounds find track and open, all of pack will converge to that hound that opened, cause they recognize that one has found the lost track.

NOW---that is where the Running Hound shines better then the Tree Hound type. The Running Hound type will, when a loss is made, get that head in air and start casting in circles until they wind the cat or its track. Then game on!

The Tree Hound has to or by choice, keeps its nose on the ground looking for track scent only.

Have not tried crossing all Tree Hound breeds to Running Hounds, but have done so with Blueticks, Redtick, Treeing Walkers, Plotts, & Leopard Hounds. My success rate was very limited. Did a number of those crosses make good lion, coon, bear hounds? Yep, they sure did that. BUT---1,2,3 of litter made what I wanted in a bobcat hound. I would tree a few, catch a few, lost a lot that was started and never could do nothing with?

Gentlemen & houndsman from out West called today thanking me for these brain or brainless notes. He runs plotts on bobcat & lion plus some bear, and is like myself(older then dirt). We both have problems with the larger type hounds(50# & up) due to their athletic ability or the lack there of. In my hunting area, those big round Tree Hound feet will not stay sound for more then 1.5 to 3 hard bobcat races.

Where the 25# to 35#, small cat footed hounds will just keep hunting/running hunt after hunt! I am talking Running Walker & Trigg bred hounds.

Another Problem---when crossing my Running type with Tree type----most make pretty good cat hounds. BUT--about 50% are small like I like & 50% get as big as shetland ponies!

One of my hunting buddys and I have two pups of a 6 pup litter that are perfect in size. There are 3 of the littermattes that are huge & 1 that is about 45#? This is about the 3rd litter that has been like this.

1bludawg, I forgot something!

I keep a number of houndsmen that runs bobcats from having the sorriest bobcat hounds out there! Some times they look/work like a million dollars, but then they step to the line and they would not be worth a plug nickel. I likely am the only one that would fee them.


Take care and come go hunting some time.

Clyde

Clyde,if i ever make it back to Rattan i'll look you up .My grandparents live there but have passed on now.I still have many relatives there.
My grandpa sent my dad and me one of the best cat dogs i've ever been to the woods with.He was tall and rangy,fast and tough. Probably about 60 to70 lbs. He could take hunting every day.The only time i ever saw him sore footed was after hunting several hours in frozen snow.
He was bluetick,black &tan and trigg and needed
no help and proved it many times .No one else may have liked him but i would mortgage my home for another like him.Take care and Good Hunting !