Serious Question!

[al baldwin]

Must be, I have always had sorry dogs. However not ashamed to admit over the years I have seen a bunch of cats tiptoe into an open spot, dogs arrive a couple minutes later moving about the same speed as the bobcat was traveling. Dogs had noses to ground like the track was made a couple hours ago. Some of these dogs were good hounds with numerous caught cats to their credit. Have had more than one hunter witness this their first time hunting with me & they were very surprised. Summer hunting has produced more of these incidents than winter hunting, but have witnessed these cats in the winter also. I say if a hunter has never witnessed these type cats he has never ran enough cats here where I hunt. Given enough chances dogs have eventually caught some of these cats, most were ground catches. Maybe cats can/t hold scent, however I am convinced when a cats learns to keep his cool & tiptoe ahead of the hounds, those cats are very difficult for hounds to track. Al

[DerekE]

Well I'll throw this out there.
Everyone is thinking about the scent conditions for the cat, but what about the dogs? They've been running hard for all that time too. Now they make a lose and are panting heavily through their mouth. Maybe they can't take as many scent molecules into their nose when they are breathing heavily due to short, fast breaths. Maybe the scent isn't the factor in this case, but instead the dog's physical capabilities causes the problem. Maybe they can run fine while the cat is jumped and the scent is hot but put a little age on the scent and they can't smell him. Ever see a dog cold trailing with his tongue hanging out, panting? No, when they are working something they can barely smell they are breathing mainly though their nose. They pick their head up to bark. When they are breathing hard they can't breath as deeply through their nose. I'm thinking this combined with the cat having a chance to slow down and walk could create the lose. Just a thought.


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[TomJr]

Well I'll throw this out there.
Everyone is thinking about the scent conditions for the cat, but what about the dogs? They've been running hard for all that time too. Now they make a lose and are panting heavily through their mouth. Maybe they can't take as many scent molecules into their nose when they are breathing heavily due to short, fast breaths. Maybe the scent isn't the factor in this case, but instead the dog's physical capabilities causes the problem. Maybe they can run fine while the cat is jumped and the scent is hot but put a little age on the scent and they can't smell him. Ever see a dog cold trailing with his tongue hanging out, panting? No, when they are working something they can barely smell they are breathing mainly though their nose. They pick their head up to bark. When they are breathing hard they can't breath as deeply through their nose. I'm thinking this combined with the cat having a chance to slow down and walk could create the lose. Just a thought.


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This. If you have access to water and can get them to drink and cool down then let them try the area they made the loss in sometimes mine have been able to pick up the trial again. Its not easy to do because the dogs may want to keep going and ignore the water... Some times I just let them give up completely and then take them back though that area 30 mins later and they often pick up the trail again. Its usually cold by then but its still fun to watch them try! And some times they even catch em.

[DerekE]

Agreed Tom. I carry water in the box and have done the same thing. It's has worked for me a few times.

[dhostetler]

Dewey, I never really had happen what you described but I do know that it happens by conversations I had with others. Couple years ago I was running a bobcat in the rain in about 4" of snow, everytime the dogs hit an open area they absolutely could not smell it but could really burn it in the brush this was happening on a jumped cat with the dogs within a 100 yards of it, I never caught it. Another time I trailed a small one with a track not much bigger than a house cat. The track was less than 2 hours old. I trailed it for hours thinking they would jump it anytime. Finally I realized they had it jumped but just couldn't pressure it enough to climb. They would burn it 50 yards and loose it, as far as I could tell the cat wasn't pulling off any tricks, the dogs just couldn't smell it very good for some reason, it was one of my most strangest races, never caught that one either.

During hot weather I too try to water my dogs through a race whenever I can if the race doesn't cross creeks.

[dwalton]

Years ago when I started bobcat hunting hard I hunted with Roland Wilson he told me if a bobcat is walking or trotting ahead of the dogs, the dogs with have to trail it and if it is 15 minutes ahead of the dogs they will have to cold trail it. That said for me there are dogs that catch bobcats and there're bobcat dogs. Bobcats dogs will handle a track different moving a cat track with heads up moving the track at a trot or run from bush to bush almost appearing that they are jumped. The best ones will put their head down and move a track when they have to on a real old track. A lot of hounds will all ways put head down and trail a track bawling with heads up to tell the world they have a track. Those dogs will catch a cat on the jump but if a loose is made they will go back to trail and very seldom catch the bobcat trotting ahead. Track style is what catches bobcat with a lot of hard hunting. Just my opinion, Dewey

[dwalton]

Dogs over heating being it from out of shape, heat or humidity will end a cat race quick. Running in hot weather I seen the dogs quit when hitting a road in front of me. Taking them down to the river to drink and cool out then back to where they quit in the evening and catch the cat. Bobcats over heat also and usually will not go far when the dogs are pulled off or quit. Going back or putting fresh dogs on that track you will usually catch the cat in short order. With bobcat hunting there are so many variables compared to other game that make it a challenge. For me and I have hunted them all bobcat hunting is the hardest challenge and the elite of all game. Dewey

[al baldwin]

How can anyone know with any certainey , how many minutes a bobcat has to be ahead of the dogs that forces dogs to put nose on ground to cold trail? There are to many other variables that effect the dogs ability to trail a bobcat. I owned a hound from Tom Barnett/s line of dogs that make it tough on any cat he ran. The type that caught most cat he got a good jump on. His nose shined with any hounds I hunted him with & got his head in the air when the track allowed & taught me those tiptoe cats were catchable, most on the ground. I can/t recall anyone who hunted with that dog that had anything bad to say about his cat catching ability. Recall first time Robin Sell & I witnessed a cat sneaking a few yards of that dog & he had to really work that track we were stunned. He did tree that cat after a struggle & in his life taught me more about cat hunting than I could have ever learned from other hunters. Respectfully Al

[Dan Edwards]

Well I'll throw this out there.
Everyone is thinking about the scent conditions for the cat, but what about the dogs? They've been running hard for all that time too. Now they make a lose and are panting heavily through their mouth.

This is what I meant by the dogs just being exhausted or too hot.

[al baldwin]

Well I'll throw this out there.
Everyone is thinking about the scent conditions for the cat, but what about the dogs? They've been running hard for all that time too. Now they make a lose and are panting heavily through their mouth.

This is what I meant by the dogs just being exhausted or too hot.

--------------Folks I understand that can happen. I have experienced cats here that never ran, first time a dog barks they just began sneaking around ahead of the dogs. I know this for sure because have seen the cat at times, other times dogs have trailed crossing in the same area several times, trailing like the cat was an hour ahead of them. Then some times getting close enough to spook and catch the cat. Don/t blame anyone for not believing this, was told this by others, before I witnessed it, had serious doubts they knew what they were talking about. Al

[Dan Edwards]

I believe that, al. Ive seen coyotes even do that stuff before. I seen one doing it early this year on a creek bank that was all grown over and such. I could catch a glimpse of him every now and then the shady bastard.

[pegleg]

Bobcat are slick sometimes. I watched a cat disappear in a freshly cut and baled alfalfa field once. There were two of us on different sides of the field and when the cat sunk down neither of us could see it. I walked up within feet before I could see it again. And it was a large cat. On the other hand some cats can really travel not a real sprint but in broken ground they can keep a speed in the low teens going for a long time. This variation in the cats themselves is probably what makes it more challenging for the hounds. Similar to how conditions can change the work a hound has to be capable of to catch lion or other game. We've been having some windy conditions here and it doesn't affect lion scent nearly as much as bobcat scent if the behavior of the dogs is a accurate gauge .

[Emily]

I only ever had one hound that was any good on bobcats and I wasn't always able to keep up with him on the icy mountain ledges they usually ended up on, so by the time I got there, the cat was often gone, so I probably know less than I think I do. However, I did study meteorology when I was young and I think that the exact wind and moisture conditions in the immediate area have a lot to do with whether a hound can smell a track. If the cat is running, that will generate air currents on an otherwise still day, and the hounds are generating their own air currents as they move.. In cold weather, the ground warms up on a sunny day, rising over the darker parts faster than the snowy parts. If the cat has been resting in a tree for hours, most of the scent is going to drift upward, away from the hound, especially on a sunny afternoon.
The fluid dynamics of air over uneven ground, scattered trees, disrupted by moving animals, is extremely complex. Moisture, wind, etc. can affect the rate of scent dispersal too. Usually, when the dogs lost a track, I would try to think through the aerodynamics of the spot to help the best dog out if I could. I'm not sure my "help" was better than random, but I always tried to stick to the theory that I was the brains and they were the nose.
My one good dog could usually work things out eventually, while his backup lost interest and was only the first to pick up the scent if it was crisscrossed all over the place and he had to untangle it.
In general, my theory about those animals "holding their scent" is just that they "know" what to do to take advantage of whatever very local air movement is or is not going on. But whether the game is doing it intentionally or not, those air movements have a lot to do with the hounds making a loss.

[mark]

In all these scenarios and the theories of what is going on in them,is it possible that it comes down to the dog/dogs are the problem? Would every dog ever born handle each scenario the same or would a person see differences in different dogs? I know we all think we have either hunted or hunted with the best cat dog/dogs that was ever born but we all know there is always a better one someplace. What would we think if we had a cat trotting out in front of the dogs trailing and had been doing so for 15 minutes or more and a friend pulled up with a new dog and that dog hit the track where it crossed the road 50 yards ahead of the trailing dogs and ran the track? Is that even remotley possible. Or would we theorize that something must of changed in the conditions in that 50 yards? I know one of the biggest reasons i hunt is to maybe someday have a dog that doesnt struggle with anything a cat can throw at it. Probly no such dog but i havent ruled the possibility completley out. I have seen cats and dogs do all the things mentioned in this thread a lot of times in my life and still do but it definently doesnt happen as much as it use to......... My theory is global warming has caused cats to become easier to catch over the years???????? Just some things i think about when its just me the dogs and a cat.

[al baldwin]

I What would we think if we had a cat trotting out in front of the dogs trailing and had been doing so for 15 minutes or more and a friend pulled up with a new dog and that dog hit the track where it crossed the road 50 yards ahead of the trailing dogs and ran the track? Is that even remotley possible My theory is global warming has caused cats to become easier to catch over the years???????? Just some things i think about when its just me the dogs and a cat.

----------- Yes mark, that is possible. I saw that happen,(not with a friend/s dog), but with two different dogs that I owned. I have never giving a lot of thought to to the pressure changes & would not blame it on that. Global warming has nothing to do with your dogs catching more of those type cats. You have just over time,came up with a very good pack of cat dogs. I suspect most of your pack is as good as the four best dogs I ever saw on such a cat, maybe better? I will ask you, if you took the best two dogs out of your pack, would you still have as good a pack?--------I commend you for stating that, even with very best you have came up with there are still a few cats that escape them.--------I believe John has learned his dogs short comings are not anything some of the very best dogs on the west coast are totally exempt from.---------Yes there will always be a better dog somewhere, pleased you have the desire & assets to search for that dog. One thing that motives me to respond to such questions is hoping it helps some young or inexperienced houndsmen in there quest to catch bobcat & not believe if they sink a large amount of money into a special pup, they will have a for sure great bobcat dog soon. I am willing to bet money cannot buy your best dog. Respectful Al