American Blue Gascons

[Brady Davis]

Steve, let me know when you get photots reworked...I would buy a copy or something from you. I've been wondering how good a photo place could fix up some of these old photos and make some things easier to see....

Tim, surely some uniformity in the F1 crosses!!!! There is clearly a type of dog produced by doing this.

[lmorgan]

Tim, I appreciate the history lesson and I'm sure enjoying the pics. I didn't mean to open a can of worms on the bluetick breed and the history of French infusion. In my opinion, there are more than a few of us around that have done our share of historical research. On the other hand, there are those (no doubt some who lurk here) who have not done the research and are benefitting greatly from this thread. Keep it up! My original reason for posting this thread was to cut down on some of the confusion associated with the difference in the Grande Bleu de Gascognne and the current American Blue Gascon Hound. I still believe that a distinction should be made, especially to those on the outside looking in.

I will be the absolute last person to argue that old European lines of hounds, and especially and primarily those from France, greatly influenced the bluetick colored hounds in America. I also would argue that they greatly influenced most of the other modern breeds of American coonhounds. Old historical articles from both the ABGHA and the NMTHA should verify that.

However, I still believe that it would be unfortunate to mislead the public into the misconception that the vast majority of current (and even deceased) REGISTERED American Blue Gascon Hounds were heavy in modern imported french blood. I'm not accusing you or blueticker78 of doing that, but after a stint of MANY years as the column writer, President, Chairman of the Board, Board Member, and publicity director for the ABGHA, Inc. I know that this is a problematic misconception.

Maybe it's just a miscommunication of my idea of an American Blue Gascon and what others may think. In that case, I stand corrected.

One bit of research that I have not done, nor have I ever read of it having been done, is to see how a purebred French hound (namely the Grande Bleu de Gascognne) would fare when inspected with the ABGHA breed standard. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

[liontracker]

Larry,

I hope no one gets the idea that the vast majority of A.B.G.'s are heavy in modern imported French blood. From what I found, the exact opposite is true. It is just that when I looked at some of the best western biggame hound packs from the past I saw a noticeable influence of fairly heavy French blood, whether blue or white. Also, pups from these packs were highly sought after because of their superior ability.

The last "modern" french blood imported to the US that I know of was in the 1930's for the White Gascons and the 1970's for the Bleu Gascons.

To answer your previous question in another post, that was moved to the "cage", about the tree power of my Grand Gascon Saintongeois: Of the four that I have, two tree hard and two tree medium, none leave the tree. Because I only hunt Biggame in the daylight and not coons in the dark, they can see their game in the tree. I also run them with hard tree Blues and the GGS's learn from example. What I like most about my GGS's is their ability to run a track that my "cold" nosed blues can't, their handle and impeccable kennel manners.

[lmorgan]

Thanks for the update on how the tree, Tim. When you get a chance, post some pics for us of them on the tree. I know you're proud of them, as you should be. How do they sound? I'm partial to an all-bawl mouth, so I'm curious about that as well. I'm also still curious as to how they stack up against the ABGHA breed standard (other than color of course). Please don't get the impression that I was trying to be argumentive or critical of your hounds. Far from it. I believe my questions were honest and indicative of what any serious houndsman would want to know about a "new" breed of hound (new by a few hundred years, I know )

I'd sure be curious about how they tree at night on a mean old swamp coon, too.

[liontracker]

Larry,

As for sound, it is a bawl on track and tree, just not as deep as my Sugar Creek stuff.
I will post pics when the season opens... not interested in jail right now. When my camera gets out of the shop I will try to do a video so you can hear them. As to the ABGHA breed standard: Way more than enough ear, good enough height and girth, but maybe not enough weight, only one has a broad enough head.

Fire up the grill and we can see on the coon...just don't let it get caught on the ground!

[lmorgan]

Thanks for the update. The coffee pot is on if you want to bring them down this way and see how they do on that swamp coon. I'll be waiting for you to get the videos posted. I sure do want to hear those hounds! Do they chop on tree?

[liontracker]

Yes

[bignblu]

I dont think they polluted the gene pool at all, I have had this argument with several old timers and they say that these hounds didnt have the strong treeing instinct,and that they erased alot of years of this trait built into the american blue gascon, I have to disagree, from my view I think the grande bleu has given our modern hounds more of the desired traits then anything else, nose, hound appearence and type, color, size, determination, a work ethic thats uncanny, I also believe that if a strain of hounds comes from a background of being used to bay game you can teach them to tree fairly easy, and they will naturally learn to locate from there desire to catch game, I think with anything there was some mixed emotions about these crosses, maybe even some envy, but I think given the right oppurtunity these hounds would have only bettered the American blue gascon, I dont think that anyone can ohnestly say that the American blue gascon does not or is not built from the french type gascognes and that they cant directly trace there foundation to them, or that any other strain of hound or breed carries as much french blood as the American blue gascon if this was true then why the seperation in the first place? We made this seperation to preserve a type of hound for what it is and the blood lines and traits it carries, thats the bottom line, and I think we owe these hounds the dedication of preserving them for what they are and what they have given to us as hunters, and if that means some new introduction of french blood that will better the breed then why not, after all thats where it all began and thats the type of dog that we choose to hunt and better for the future generations of American blue gascon houndsmen. A Grande Bleu is a superior type hound, and he is a superior reproducer not because he has a little of what we need or prefer in a hound but because he has it all, some chose to throw this or that in there for different reasons but the basis started with the Grande bleu because of what he already brought to the woods.

I saw those two hounds, they were nasty tempered, crippled in the rear assembly and would not tree a bark. I saw two litters and they were enough to make a knowledgable houndsman puke.

I beleive that those two hounds and trier geneticks have almost singlehandly polutted the fantastic genes handed down to us by O.O.Grant.
When John bought those two imports, I thought it was a great move---now having been there, seeing it all first hand, I beleive it was Bob mattschecka diaster.