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reed wrote: It isn't about kamakaze dogs its about opertunistic gritty dogs. In essence he is saying do you want to chase the bear or do you want to catch the bear? It is about the dog work.

I agree with you reed, it is most definitely about the dog work, that is why I have stayed in hounds for so long. The thrill of killing bears wore off for me quite a few years ago. I feed my dogs so I can catch bear.

I think the distinction that we are trying to debate is what the definition of a gritty dog is. Some guys think a gritty dog is one that comes back with holes in it every other time it's turned loose. It doesn't take too many holes and you have a dead dog. That kind of dog has more grits than brains. Vet bills get old real quick.

To me a gritty dog is one that catches the bears I put it one, without being bit or swatted. Over the years I've had plenty of dogs that could catch mean bear without being hurt. Those kinds of dogs have the type of grit that I like. Each time I turn my dogs loose I expect to catch a bear and as long as they do that the majority of the time, then I'll keep feeding them.

Maybe Reed explained what I was trying to say better than I did. I have no problem with shooting a bear on the ground if the dogs have it stopped. If I wanted to shoot a bear running away from the dogs I would have some "running" type dogs like July's or foxhounds. I am convinced the dogs wont get hurt if they dont have the courage to fight a bear. If they stand back 40 ft and bay they will be safe and there will be no vet bills, however that bear can go where ever he wants and the dogs will never hold him in one place long enough to get to the bear. But then I guess you can always figure out where he is going, get in your truck and cut him off and shoot him as he is running across a road. But really did the dogs do any more than "flush the bear out of a block of woods? Are they "bear dogs" ? Or are they dogs that run bear, and dont tree or catch a bear?

My point is, that in my opinion, you can tree more bear with a pack that fights together and bites the bear, than you can with a pack that runs him all over the woods and lets the bear dictate how, and where the race goes. Do, I have the dogs I describe, NO. But I know people who do, and they flat out "CATCH" bear.

oh and after its all said and done I like beer drinking time too!

I prefer one to get in and pull hair but from the right end. If the bears is trying to leave all he gets is alot of teeth on his heels. I don't care for the dogs which are header's they either end up dead if gritty or just bark and let the bear walk where ever he wants to go. If gritty with brains they will hold or tree almost any bear without a lot of vet bills. We all know though every time we turn loose they might not come back.

I agree that they need to pull hair from the right end, I want mine to bay tight and jump in and nip its butt when they get a chance, but if they just grab hold and hang on they won't be eating my food for long, and if they won't stay close and bay hard they're liable to get an acute case of lead poisoning. I won't keep a kamikaze dog but plenty of people love them so there is never any problem finding them a new home. You need to pay attention to fox hunter though, I totally agree with him You have to judge your bear before you judge the dogs.

I have a young dog that I have personally seen ride a bear down a clear cut. I also have a dog that is very smart and will pull hair when the opportunity arrives when he won't get hurt. I have seen him grab a bear from behind and then jump back when the bear turns toward him. He trees just as many bears doing that as my young dog that wont let go of them. I have to staple that young dog every rough bear that I am on. The older smarter dog I only staple a few times a season. I love them both, the younger one makes for better video but they both get the same results